Thank you so much, Simon and all the members of the group. I struggled with this book at times (number of characters, changing viewpoints...), and the notes and comments were so, so helpful. That trial, though... What a travesty... We knew we were in for a sobering conclusion, but Mantel aces it -- there are still the flashes of wit amidst that terrible darkness. Definitely one to return to one day.
Before I say anything about this chapter, I just want to offer huge thanks to you, Simon, for this fantastic readalong. This is such a complex book, I would never have had such a rich and deep experience of it without your guidance. Both the footnotes and the tangents have been essential!
Big gratitude to everyone in the group, too. I don't always have much to add (although sometimes I do, hehe!) but every week I hop on and read all the comments. All of your thoughts and views and sidenotes and passions really enriched my reading and thinking. Thanks so much everyone! This has been great, and I'm as devastated to say goodbye to all of you as I am to our Jacobin friends.
Thanks, Marianne! It's been a bit of a whirlwind through the revolution - and I'd echo your thanks to everyone for all the contributions! You've made something rather special.
There was a real sense of danger and urgency through this chapter. I don't like to think what it did to my blood pressure.
I still can't help wondering why people didn't get away - surely they could see what's coming. Or is this some form of martyrdom?
The behind the scenes shenanigans are not that far removed from 'Bring Up The Bodies' - using (and inventing) the law to get rid of the opposition. Lots of implicit threats.
I thought the writing around Babette was great - you don't trust Babette but you also know not to trust Danton. Babette knows Danton's reputation, so would know what sort of story to make up - but would Danton be so stupid so close to home? Robespierre, of course, isn't that interested in finding out the truth - maybe . just feeling some relief at having justification for what's happening.
St Just, though! Have you ever come across somebody that you so want to introduce to the business end of a shovel? I can think of a few activists - on all sides - whose behaviour wouldn't be so different.
I must admit to feeling a bit relieved that we've got to the end. The book generally shows people at their very worst. And in the current political climate, I really don't want to think where a few power-obsessed, corrupt individuals could take us.
I thought it was clear that this was made up, because of the earlier incident with Camille. We know his reputation too, but he didn't do what he could have been accused of and we know that she set that up. While it's true that Camille's reputation has not been for overbearing seduction and Georges' has, we also have a lot of textual evidence that Georges talks a lot but doesn't cross lines of consent. He keeps propositioning Lucille but waits for her to agree (or not – that happens offstage, if it happens) and he marries Louise rather than trying to overpower her. I think the whole point of the Camille/Babette scene is to prove that the Georges/Babette scene didn't happen; else why was it there?
Perhaps, but I think that presents Mantel with a rather difficult question as to why she chose to cast Babette as unambiguously deceptive and predatory – it seems a rather cruel thing to do to a historical character on such limited evidence? I think the Camille/Babette scene is there to create uncertainty in our minds – that might mirror the uncertainty in Max's mind. While we know Danton could not get Lucile into bed, we are told he has mistresses and is unfaithful. I suspect he did try to kiss her (as she says in her memoirs), but someone "helped" her turn that into something more for political purposes.
Thank you so much for this read-along, Simon! I learned so much from you and this community.
I had one tangent in mind during the last few chapters: Macbeth, specifically his line, “I am in blood / Stepped in so far, that, should I wade no more, / Returning were as tedious as go o'er.” This could be Robespierre’s motto, but it fits all three of our protagonists at the end. They all recognize that the killing has gotten out of hand, and that they have betrayed all their goals. Camille says repeatedly that he wants the killing to stop. And yet Robespierre in particular keeps thinking that if they just hang in there and kill the last few enemies, then their utopia can begin.
But there will always be more enemies to kill, so long as they think that killing people is necessary.
I am proud of Camille for going to his death rather than accepting Robespierre’s proposition and collaborating with the prosecution.
There is no question that without this slow read - the incredibly rich weekly posts and the accountability associated with signing up for it - I would never have reached the end of APOGS. It’s a book and experience that will linger long in the memory. Thank you, Simon!
I echo the thanks of others, Simon. I’d never have managed this one without you. I wonder why I felt the death of C and D (especially C) so much more viscerally than that of Cromwell. Perhaps it’s because I know the history less well, so the territory was fresher, more raw. I also wonder why, after so much detail and so many pages, HM decided to end the story ‘before the end’, leaving Max, for now, still alive. I also just want to mention what I think might be my favourite line in a novel ever - ‘favourite’ because it’s so horrifying in so few words: “For ten seconds Danton looks away.” The ten seconds that Camille is under the machine. The stark, silent brutality of it. And no more sparkling, witty, vibrant Camille. Ug. Just awful. So clever, Hilary. I’m still recovering. Can we do a comedy next??? 😆🤦🏻♀️
It’s hard to read Babette’s accusation scene, but I very much took from it that it was fabricated in order to tip Robespierre over the edge. He is very black and white in his thinking and increasingly obsessed by Virtue. Danton already disgusts him in some ways although he respects him as a political operator. This scene is the point where others convince him he can no longer hold his nose. Although Danton was a womaniser, there’s a difference between that and a rapist, and it wouldn’t be the first time a young woman was manipulated into political intrigue. It seems that today any scene of accusation is expected to be read as though we believe the woman but in real life ambiguity exists and can be played upon, and plotters know this.
After forcing myself to slog through the middle -- all the politics and minor characters I couldn't keep straight -- I was taken by surprise by tears at the end. We knew where we were headed, and at times I couldn't wait to get there. But these last chapters really undid me. Loyalty and betrayal. Love and friendship, bound to one another. Whoof.
Max -- "ruined, corrupted...a savior bled dry: they have broken his heart."
Danton: "He thinks less of eternity than of how to keep his friend's body and soul together..."
Camille cries "for their composite self, their eternity of letters, their repertoire of gestures and quirks and jokes, all lost now..."
I was way behind, but somehow managed to catch up last week and finish the book on the weekend. As I & others have commented in past chapters, this book is a bit of a mess, and it's often hard to figure out exactly what is going on and keep track of the huge cast of characters (especially all the minor ones) and who's who... but it's an interesting mess, nevertheless, and the quality of the prose (as usual, from Mantel) is wonderful. And those last few chapters... wow. Even knowing what was going to happen, the rising sense of dread and tension was brutal.
As I read those last few chapters, I couldn't help but think of the parallels to (ahem) certain current events. I kept thinking of the Beatles' song ("You say you want a revolution...?") -- and how sometimes the events we set in motion take on a life of their own, and spin out of our control, and our own words can come back to haunt us.
Thanks (again) Simon (and everyone else who contributed to the conversation -- and confirmed that I wasn't alone in my confusion sometimes re: just what was going on...!). I don't know if I'd have gotten through the whole book without you all!
Thank you Simon for another wonderful readalong. I didn't always know what was going on but the book was certainly entertaining. That last chapter was full of dread and heartbreak. An absolute sham of a trial. And poor Lucile. I wasn't expecting her to be arrested and killed just as an excuse to finish off Danton. I feel like I need some recovery time now after all these needless deaths.
Thank you, Simon, for a wonderful few months. This was my third reading of APOGS (and fourth - I re-read each weekly extract after reading your notes and the excellent discussion comments), but the first time I've really appreciated the book and the beautiful writing. It helped that I already knew the characters and what was going to happen next, so I didn't get so lost in the vast cast list and turmoil of events.
Despite knowing the ending I was still completely sideswiped by the emotions of this final chapter. That hadn't hit me the first two times, so I have to assume it's something to do with taking the time to let each week's extract settle - my first time reading it took forever due to distractions/life and the second was just about getting through a reading list quickly. Stepping away for a few days after each fifty-ish pages, having another set of thoughts to consider, getting a broader view through the footnotes, coming back to it again - this definitely won't be my last slow read.
Were there any heroes or villains? Everyone was flawed, often deeply, yet had the redemption of being driven by a deeply-held commitment to something greater (OK, maybe Hebert and Saint-Juste are beyond redemption). As she always does, Hilary Mantel presents people from all aspects, and leaves us to reflect on the complexity of individuals and the consequences of those complexities for their lives.
I fell behind with this slow read and was intimidated by how much I had to catch up, but strangely (or not), when I read bigger chunks faster, I was able to keep more of the characters in mind and it felt more immersive. I feel it naturally sped up towards the inevitable end and couldn’t stop thinking of that famous tweet: “I never thought leopards would eat MY face”, sobs woman who voted for the Leopards Eating People’s Faces Party.
Simon and online readers. Thank you. I would never have plowed through this book without you all and the delightful tangents. Perpetually lost I was.
My take away from APOGS and Wolf Hall is that, indeed, friends do turn on friends. As a person who has scores of lifelong friends, this idea seemed so odd to me. But now I can see that, despite long friendships, good people can start believing their own righteous narrative and be willing to sign the warrant to behead someone they once loved. A personal warning about always believing my own thoughts. And, in the current political moment in the US, particularly terrifying.
Thanks, again, Simon for leading us through good books. Can't wait for the next.
Thanks, Judy. Sincerely hoping that none of your lifelong friends decide to send you to the guillotine! ... and yes, the whole book speaks to the dangers of letting violent rhetoric rule our public discourse.
Thank you, Simon, for your company and all of your notes during this read. It's an astonishing book, really - yes, you can see foreshadows of techniques Mantel will refine in Wolf Hall, but what an amazing cast of characters I now have living in my head after this! I'm so grateful for all the effort you've put into these posts, which have truly enriched the reading experience.
What an absolute, absolved joy this has been to read through—with guidance and comment-driven community, especially—and to learn so much about a time period that I had only scratched the surface of. To read it for how it captured that moment and to read it, too, for how that moment continues to echo...
Like many others, my gratitude is considerable for this reading journey.
As much as I found myself riveted by the ending of the reading, though, I also stopped momentarily around a comment in your own concluding reflection: "This is not a safe book, and I am glad to be somewhere safer now."
I must admit, given the rhetoric in the United States of late—particularly from high-powered figures in government—the book has felt like a safer redress than actual reality. A warning and a reminder, too, of what can indeed happen and, I hope, therefore we cannot let happen.
So many more thoughts, but none surpassing my appreciation for this journey. Best to all!
Thank you Simon for being a superb guide, as always, and all contributors. I really struggled with this book but made it to the end. As others have said, the footnotes and tangents were immensely helpful as well as the Revolutions podcast. I’ve learnt a lot and won’t forget this mighty tome. See you all soon for our new book👍
Thank you so much, Simon and all the members of the group. I struggled with this book at times (number of characters, changing viewpoints...), and the notes and comments were so, so helpful. That trial, though... What a travesty... We knew we were in for a sobering conclusion, but Mantel aces it -- there are still the flashes of wit amidst that terrible darkness. Definitely one to return to one day.
Thanks, Linda!
Before I say anything about this chapter, I just want to offer huge thanks to you, Simon, for this fantastic readalong. This is such a complex book, I would never have had such a rich and deep experience of it without your guidance. Both the footnotes and the tangents have been essential!
Big gratitude to everyone in the group, too. I don't always have much to add (although sometimes I do, hehe!) but every week I hop on and read all the comments. All of your thoughts and views and sidenotes and passions really enriched my reading and thinking. Thanks so much everyone! This has been great, and I'm as devastated to say goodbye to all of you as I am to our Jacobin friends.
Thanks, Marianne! It's been a bit of a whirlwind through the revolution - and I'd echo your thanks to everyone for all the contributions! You've made something rather special.
There was a real sense of danger and urgency through this chapter. I don't like to think what it did to my blood pressure.
I still can't help wondering why people didn't get away - surely they could see what's coming. Or is this some form of martyrdom?
The behind the scenes shenanigans are not that far removed from 'Bring Up The Bodies' - using (and inventing) the law to get rid of the opposition. Lots of implicit threats.
I thought the writing around Babette was great - you don't trust Babette but you also know not to trust Danton. Babette knows Danton's reputation, so would know what sort of story to make up - but would Danton be so stupid so close to home? Robespierre, of course, isn't that interested in finding out the truth - maybe . just feeling some relief at having justification for what's happening.
St Just, though! Have you ever come across somebody that you so want to introduce to the business end of a shovel? I can think of a few activists - on all sides - whose behaviour wouldn't be so different.
I must admit to feeling a bit relieved that we've got to the end. The book generally shows people at their very worst. And in the current political climate, I really don't want to think where a few power-obsessed, corrupt individuals could take us.
I thought it was clear that this was made up, because of the earlier incident with Camille. We know his reputation too, but he didn't do what he could have been accused of and we know that she set that up. While it's true that Camille's reputation has not been for overbearing seduction and Georges' has, we also have a lot of textual evidence that Georges talks a lot but doesn't cross lines of consent. He keeps propositioning Lucille but waits for her to agree (or not – that happens offstage, if it happens) and he marries Louise rather than trying to overpower her. I think the whole point of the Camille/Babette scene is to prove that the Georges/Babette scene didn't happen; else why was it there?
Perhaps, but I think that presents Mantel with a rather difficult question as to why she chose to cast Babette as unambiguously deceptive and predatory – it seems a rather cruel thing to do to a historical character on such limited evidence? I think the Camille/Babette scene is there to create uncertainty in our minds – that might mirror the uncertainty in Max's mind. While we know Danton could not get Lucile into bed, we are told he has mistresses and is unfaithful. I suspect he did try to kiss her (as she says in her memoirs), but someone "helped" her turn that into something more for political purposes.
Thank you so much for this read-along, Simon! I learned so much from you and this community.
I had one tangent in mind during the last few chapters: Macbeth, specifically his line, “I am in blood / Stepped in so far, that, should I wade no more, / Returning were as tedious as go o'er.” This could be Robespierre’s motto, but it fits all three of our protagonists at the end. They all recognize that the killing has gotten out of hand, and that they have betrayed all their goals. Camille says repeatedly that he wants the killing to stop. And yet Robespierre in particular keeps thinking that if they just hang in there and kill the last few enemies, then their utopia can begin.
But there will always be more enemies to kill, so long as they think that killing people is necessary.
I am proud of Camille for going to his death rather than accepting Robespierre’s proposition and collaborating with the prosecution.
Thanks, Mari!
Ooh, yes -- great observations!
There is no question that without this slow read - the incredibly rich weekly posts and the accountability associated with signing up for it - I would never have reached the end of APOGS. It’s a book and experience that will linger long in the memory. Thank you, Simon!
Wonderful! Thanks, Helen.
I echo the thanks of others, Simon. I’d never have managed this one without you. I wonder why I felt the death of C and D (especially C) so much more viscerally than that of Cromwell. Perhaps it’s because I know the history less well, so the territory was fresher, more raw. I also wonder why, after so much detail and so many pages, HM decided to end the story ‘before the end’, leaving Max, for now, still alive. I also just want to mention what I think might be my favourite line in a novel ever - ‘favourite’ because it’s so horrifying in so few words: “For ten seconds Danton looks away.” The ten seconds that Camille is under the machine. The stark, silent brutality of it. And no more sparkling, witty, vibrant Camille. Ug. Just awful. So clever, Hilary. I’m still recovering. Can we do a comedy next??? 😆🤦🏻♀️
Looks at the line up: um, no – no comedy next, but everything will feel lighter after this!
It’s hard to read Babette’s accusation scene, but I very much took from it that it was fabricated in order to tip Robespierre over the edge. He is very black and white in his thinking and increasingly obsessed by Virtue. Danton already disgusts him in some ways although he respects him as a political operator. This scene is the point where others convince him he can no longer hold his nose. Although Danton was a womaniser, there’s a difference between that and a rapist, and it wouldn’t be the first time a young woman was manipulated into political intrigue. It seems that today any scene of accusation is expected to be read as though we believe the woman but in real life ambiguity exists and can be played upon, and plotters know this.
After forcing myself to slog through the middle -- all the politics and minor characters I couldn't keep straight -- I was taken by surprise by tears at the end. We knew where we were headed, and at times I couldn't wait to get there. But these last chapters really undid me. Loyalty and betrayal. Love and friendship, bound to one another. Whoof.
Max -- "ruined, corrupted...a savior bled dry: they have broken his heart."
Danton: "He thinks less of eternity than of how to keep his friend's body and soul together..."
Camille cries "for their composite self, their eternity of letters, their repertoire of gestures and quirks and jokes, all lost now..."
Completely gutting! Mantel is so good at making it a human tragedy above all.
I was way behind, but somehow managed to catch up last week and finish the book on the weekend. As I & others have commented in past chapters, this book is a bit of a mess, and it's often hard to figure out exactly what is going on and keep track of the huge cast of characters (especially all the minor ones) and who's who... but it's an interesting mess, nevertheless, and the quality of the prose (as usual, from Mantel) is wonderful. And those last few chapters... wow. Even knowing what was going to happen, the rising sense of dread and tension was brutal.
As I read those last few chapters, I couldn't help but think of the parallels to (ahem) certain current events. I kept thinking of the Beatles' song ("You say you want a revolution...?") -- and how sometimes the events we set in motion take on a life of their own, and spin out of our control, and our own words can come back to haunt us.
Thanks (again) Simon (and everyone else who contributed to the conversation -- and confirmed that I wasn't alone in my confusion sometimes re: just what was going on...!). I don't know if I'd have gotten through the whole book without you all!
Thank you Simon for another wonderful readalong. I didn't always know what was going on but the book was certainly entertaining. That last chapter was full of dread and heartbreak. An absolute sham of a trial. And poor Lucile. I wasn't expecting her to be arrested and killed just as an excuse to finish off Danton. I feel like I need some recovery time now after all these needless deaths.
Thanks, Gavin.
Thank you, Simon, for a wonderful few months. This was my third reading of APOGS (and fourth - I re-read each weekly extract after reading your notes and the excellent discussion comments), but the first time I've really appreciated the book and the beautiful writing. It helped that I already knew the characters and what was going to happen next, so I didn't get so lost in the vast cast list and turmoil of events.
Despite knowing the ending I was still completely sideswiped by the emotions of this final chapter. That hadn't hit me the first two times, so I have to assume it's something to do with taking the time to let each week's extract settle - my first time reading it took forever due to distractions/life and the second was just about getting through a reading list quickly. Stepping away for a few days after each fifty-ish pages, having another set of thoughts to consider, getting a broader view through the footnotes, coming back to it again - this definitely won't be my last slow read.
Were there any heroes or villains? Everyone was flawed, often deeply, yet had the redemption of being driven by a deeply-held commitment to something greater (OK, maybe Hebert and Saint-Juste are beyond redemption). As she always does, Hilary Mantel presents people from all aspects, and leaves us to reflect on the complexity of individuals and the consequences of those complexities for their lives.
A wonderful experience. Thank you again.
That's so awesome, and a real testament to the value of a slow read!
I fell behind with this slow read and was intimidated by how much I had to catch up, but strangely (or not), when I read bigger chunks faster, I was able to keep more of the characters in mind and it felt more immersive. I feel it naturally sped up towards the inevitable end and couldn’t stop thinking of that famous tweet: “I never thought leopards would eat MY face”, sobs woman who voted for the Leopards Eating People’s Faces Party.
Big thanks Simon for getting us through it!
Simon and online readers. Thank you. I would never have plowed through this book without you all and the delightful tangents. Perpetually lost I was.
My take away from APOGS and Wolf Hall is that, indeed, friends do turn on friends. As a person who has scores of lifelong friends, this idea seemed so odd to me. But now I can see that, despite long friendships, good people can start believing their own righteous narrative and be willing to sign the warrant to behead someone they once loved. A personal warning about always believing my own thoughts. And, in the current political moment in the US, particularly terrifying.
Thanks, again, Simon for leading us through good books. Can't wait for the next.
Thanks, Judy. Sincerely hoping that none of your lifelong friends decide to send you to the guillotine! ... and yes, the whole book speaks to the dangers of letting violent rhetoric rule our public discourse.
Thank you, Simon, for your company and all of your notes during this read. It's an astonishing book, really - yes, you can see foreshadows of techniques Mantel will refine in Wolf Hall, but what an amazing cast of characters I now have living in my head after this! I'm so grateful for all the effort you've put into these posts, which have truly enriched the reading experience.
So glad!
What an absolute, absolved joy this has been to read through—with guidance and comment-driven community, especially—and to learn so much about a time period that I had only scratched the surface of. To read it for how it captured that moment and to read it, too, for how that moment continues to echo...
Like many others, my gratitude is considerable for this reading journey.
As much as I found myself riveted by the ending of the reading, though, I also stopped momentarily around a comment in your own concluding reflection: "This is not a safe book, and I am glad to be somewhere safer now."
I must admit, given the rhetoric in the United States of late—particularly from high-powered figures in government—the book has felt like a safer redress than actual reality. A warning and a reminder, too, of what can indeed happen and, I hope, therefore we cannot let happen.
So many more thoughts, but none surpassing my appreciation for this journey. Best to all!
Yes, after I wrote that I thought about the far right on the march and on the rise here in the UK. One mustn't be complacent!
Thank you Simon for being a superb guide, as always, and all contributors. I really struggled with this book but made it to the end. As others have said, the footnotes and tangents were immensely helpful as well as the Revolutions podcast. I’ve learnt a lot and won’t forget this mighty tome. See you all soon for our new book👍
Thanks, Lynn!