Just thank you to Simon and this thoughtful, intelligent and curious community which has furnished me with such welcome diversion during my most stressful time of year. I am so grateful to plop down after a long work day and read what Simon has to say about each section of these extraordinary books, and the subsequent comments from the Wolf Crawlers. Cheers to you all!
Re. Pike: my friend the Farmer tells me that pike strike with great force, instantly, like BAM! It can give you a big fright. You have to then unhook it with pliers; whatever you do, don't put your hand anywhere near its mouth. The pike itself is full of little bones, you have to pass the flesh through a sieve to get them out.
Interesting! So not much reward for all that risk! The cannibalism of the pike certainly seemed to be a good analogy for court, much like the homo homini lupus - man is wolf to man. I also thought the fishing invitation was a clear suggestion that they get away from being overheard to better plot the Boleyn downfall
Plenty of pike fishing here in northern New England (if one knows where to look). Most fishermen don't eat them, but the truth is, a pike makes good eating. The filleting must be done in a precise way (easily referenced these days) in order to remove the "Y" bones. Once properly prepared the flesh is white, flaky and delicate. If you get a chance to observe the mouth of one of these magnificent predators, you might note the pinkish hue which covers all the teeth. This is a type of bacteria which acts as an anticoagulant.
I’m finding my sympathies for Cromwell diminish as he plots to destroy Anne, and also because I’m starting to fear for everyone in his household and the consequences for them of his actions now. He knows he’s on thin ice but rather than considering how to find safe ground, he’s carrying on and hoping for the best, which would be fine if he was really as alone as he thinks he is, but there are a lot of people who’s fortunes are tied to his and it seems reckless and selfish to me.
I do appreciate his efforts to enact some taxes and income redistribution though. It’s as if he has this wonderful sense of fairness and good at a societal level but throws all his morals out the window when it comes to dealing with Henry.
If you cast your mind back to Wolf Hall, he and Anne had a conversation about Little Bilney who couldn't be saved from the fire. Cromwell told Anne that he would do anything to survive, and he thought she would too. This is one of the big distinctions between Cromwell vs More and Cromwell vs Anne. In this fight, they know it is killed or be killed and neither want to die. The moment where he hesitates and thinks of fleeing the country feels like the last moment he can back away. And even then it is probably too late.
I feel as though he’s not trying hard enough to survive, though. I’m thinking back to that knight he met in Italy who told him that for glory you must conquer your will to survive, and how he’s building an empire all of his own on the back of bribes and gifts, and it seems like he’s become too attached to power to play it safe anymore.
Well that is certainly true. Perhaps it is less he will do anything to survive than he will do anything to win? As the knight says. And winning here, for Anne and Cromwell, means destroying each other. Although I think there is always a contradiction in Cromwell. He does fantasise about his quiet future, miss the company of his wife. That moment of irredeemable sadness in this chapter: the man who has it all but is faintly aware he has nothing.
Such a very high stakes game! Lose and you’re dead, win and you live another day but only until Henry’s mood shifts again. I wonder if he’d be so willing to play if Liz and the girls were still alive? Or if he’d take the risks more seriously?
The way HM portrays his loneliness and sadness is one of my favourite aspects of the books. It makes him so human, so relatable - the way it lies just below the surface, suppressed by busyness most of the time, but catching him (us) unawares every now and then.
(Another favourite is the spectacular way the characters burn one another 😂 Seymour’s “I keep my poems for my friends” and Cromwell’s “why would I believe you?” to Geoffrey among others in this chapter, so fabulous!)
You're right about Hilary's portrayal of his humanity, its what keeps him interesting. I try to remember that it is possible for several things to be true at once - that he wants power and to rise in the world, that he wants to be safe and comfortable and quiet, that he wants to improve the condition of his countrymen, and that all of that depends on him keeping Henry happy, sometimes by fairly unpleasant actions. Ultimately, one has to consider ones own skin, even if it leaves us open to criticism. I often think about this when I read the news, where someone 'powerful' has been accused of misbehaving: how different am I from this person, and where is my red line?
My quote of the week: "If rain falls for six months solid and rots the grain in the fields, there must be providence in it; for God knows his trade. It is an outrage to the rich and enterprising, to suggest that they should pay an income tax, only to put bread in the mouths of the workshy. And if Secretary Cromwell argues that famine provokes criminality; well, are there not hangmen enough?"
I loved this section: some wonderful writing (even more wonderful than usual) as the pace quickens and Anne’s doom resolves itself. It was a slow start, and I liked that, but now the horrible, deadly chase is on!
I actually finished the whole chapter without realizing I was reading ahead! This book is definitely moving faster (and is somewhat more readable) than Wolf Hall was!
I'm not surprised! Each of the three books has its own pace and style. This second one is more like a thriller than anything. The third one is different again.
I’m afraid I raced and raced and raced, I couldn’t stopped myself, and now I’m with The Mirror And The Light! 😱🤦♀️🤷♀️But thoroughly enjoying your texts and all the comments, it allows me to revisit what I’ve ended binge reading, and you have a gift for capturing the essence of each fragment we read, thank you 😊
The highlight of the chapter to me was Cromwell's unexpectedly desperate but fond remembrance of his father Walter. Henry is raging at Cromwell because of Chapuys' impertinence. Henry is everything to Cromwell so to be the object of Henry's rage leaves Cromwell with nothing to hold on to.
But then Cromwell recovers some of his self-esteem by considering how Henry would be unsuitable in Walter's forge, lacking the calm and the wit to survive the forge and Walter's temper. Cromwell then recalls the crossed wrists trick his father showed him to reduce physical pain, although here he uses the trick to reduce his emotional pain.
I've had a similar reaction to a boss being unreasonable to me by recalling some talent I had that was superior to his. It helps.
Chapuys and Cromwell fishing sounds like a great "deleted" scene. I imagine Cromwell wouldn't be very good (the one commoner skill he doesn't excel at), catching only small fish, but the ambassador's misery and tangled fishing line would give him, Cromwell, a good chuckle.
You could feel a sense in this section of how Cromwell is hanging in the middle, positioned to study, ally, empathize with anyone as needed, but belonging nowhere and paying the price of loneliness. He’s gotten near enough to influence Henry (and brokenhearted at his indifference), and while he tames the royal lion he stands up for the poor, oversees the political game of chess at court, he builds and builds. If he could he’d build a totalitarian state with himself at the top, and things would run smoothly at long last.
I mention chess because the two Queens at this point are human pieces being shuffled around the board by their two families. I don’t think it’s a coincidence that we got some examples of casual sexism from various Boleyns and Seymours, adding to the dehumanization both women are experiencing. And it’s also no coincidence that Cromwell is the one man feeling sorry for Jane; I said a few weeks ago that his position is parallel to the women’s, someone of inferior status fighting his way up, teased at court, maligned by the public at large. From where he stands, he can understand Jane’s plight a little better, but not enough: he’ll try to sweeten up her sentence even when he’s putting her up for sale. He’s playing the game too. As both women are, Anne always at the attack, Jane prudent and conservative, but like Henry said, she has paws, and paws hide claws.
I also found very interesting the contrast between the Commons and the poor. Another seed of the modern world that Cromwell is helping to plant. Max Weber did say that Protestantism and capitalism were born the same day.
Do you think he's in danger of becoming like Henry? If the totalitarian situation came to pass, would Crumb seek to be beloved while actually being terrifying?
I think the key to a lot of this is that he gives Henry a book by Marsiglio of Padua. This is quite radical: It argues the king gets his sovereignty from the people represented by Parliament. He later talks about how he wants to bring king and people into harmony. And in the future prince he imagines in Anna Regina, we see something like a Philosopher-King, a monarch who is not at odds with his people because he follows sound intellectual reasoning. He knows this is not Henry.
So there is a separation between his ideas in The Book Called Henry, how to serve the current king, and his ideals of the perfect government. I think power and Henry do have an impact of the way he sees the world, and the way he acts, but it is a complex picture full of contradictions.
To me it's a moot point to imagine what kind of leader he'd be, even if he got to mold the prince of his dreams, he, Cromwell would still necessary be behind the scenes, a director rather than a main actor. He'd need a political and societal revolution to get power for himself, and isn't it ironic that a century later another Cromwell will do just that?
Yes, the whole thing is an extended dialogue between pragmatism and idealism. Something that his descendant Oli Crumb will have to find out for himself later on!
True, I had forgotten that passage about his hopes of moulding the future prince. So maybe Crumb is redeemable after all and would be able to fight down is self-serving urges for the greater good,
“If he could he’d build a totalitarian state with himself at the top, and things would run smoothly at long last” - yes! His line about how much quicker he could get in without the Commons was a 🚩
I was struck by Cromwell’s observation that Bess Seymour has "a gift for précis that eludes most of his clerks" - this reminded me of how impressed he was in the first book when Johane neatly summarised the rumours about Henry’s intention to break with Rome ("Johane ... when Parliament meets again, would you like to come down and tell them what you've just said? Because it would save a lot of time.")
I also really enjoyed the insights of Cromwell’s Book Called Henry this week - this description of the psychology of a pampered prince rang true for me: "Henry grew up believing that all the world was his friend and everybody wanted him to be happy. So any pain, any delay, frustration or stroke of ill-luck seems to him an anomaly, an outrage."
And I did have a little chuckle at Henry’s unknowing assumption that Jane's sleeves were a gift from "some poor boy struck with love with her"!
I'm just joining you and reading the Kindle edition. I appreciate your posting the opening for Week 24. It would be helpful if you'd post the ending sentence. Thanks!
TC’s description of Henry read to me like Trump “He is never in error. It is only that other people commit errors on his behalf or deceive him with false information”.
I thought those must be Cromwell's sleeves too! And am finally catching on to the word choice of "king-fisher".
Yikes! How could we have missed that! Of course! 🫣
Ahhh. I've been loving the sleeves references and I totally missed king-fisher. Great catch!
You can add me to the growing list of people who can't believe they didn't spot that!
HM was just too much. Just bringing wit and themes in at all levels!
Didn’t spot it either, was just fearing that Henry would found out they were Cromwell’s sleeves! 😱
Just thank you to Simon and this thoughtful, intelligent and curious community which has furnished me with such welcome diversion during my most stressful time of year. I am so grateful to plop down after a long work day and read what Simon has to say about each section of these extraordinary books, and the subsequent comments from the Wolf Crawlers. Cheers to you all!
What a lovely message! Thank you Susan!
Re. Pike: my friend the Farmer tells me that pike strike with great force, instantly, like BAM! It can give you a big fright. You have to then unhook it with pliers; whatever you do, don't put your hand anywhere near its mouth. The pike itself is full of little bones, you have to pass the flesh through a sieve to get them out.
Yikes!
Interesting! So not much reward for all that risk! The cannibalism of the pike certainly seemed to be a good analogy for court, much like the homo homini lupus - man is wolf to man. I also thought the fishing invitation was a clear suggestion that they get away from being overheard to better plot the Boleyn downfall
Plenty of pike fishing here in northern New England (if one knows where to look). Most fishermen don't eat them, but the truth is, a pike makes good eating. The filleting must be done in a precise way (easily referenced these days) in order to remove the "Y" bones. Once properly prepared the flesh is white, flaky and delicate. If you get a chance to observe the mouth of one of these magnificent predators, you might note the pinkish hue which covers all the teeth. This is a type of bacteria which acts as an anticoagulant.
Interesting! The Farmer asks, is that the type of pike called a muskellunge?
I’m finding my sympathies for Cromwell diminish as he plots to destroy Anne, and also because I’m starting to fear for everyone in his household and the consequences for them of his actions now. He knows he’s on thin ice but rather than considering how to find safe ground, he’s carrying on and hoping for the best, which would be fine if he was really as alone as he thinks he is, but there are a lot of people who’s fortunes are tied to his and it seems reckless and selfish to me.
I do appreciate his efforts to enact some taxes and income redistribution though. It’s as if he has this wonderful sense of fairness and good at a societal level but throws all his morals out the window when it comes to dealing with Henry.
If you cast your mind back to Wolf Hall, he and Anne had a conversation about Little Bilney who couldn't be saved from the fire. Cromwell told Anne that he would do anything to survive, and he thought she would too. This is one of the big distinctions between Cromwell vs More and Cromwell vs Anne. In this fight, they know it is killed or be killed and neither want to die. The moment where he hesitates and thinks of fleeing the country feels like the last moment he can back away. And even then it is probably too late.
I feel as though he’s not trying hard enough to survive, though. I’m thinking back to that knight he met in Italy who told him that for glory you must conquer your will to survive, and how he’s building an empire all of his own on the back of bribes and gifts, and it seems like he’s become too attached to power to play it safe anymore.
Well that is certainly true. Perhaps it is less he will do anything to survive than he will do anything to win? As the knight says. And winning here, for Anne and Cromwell, means destroying each other. Although I think there is always a contradiction in Cromwell. He does fantasise about his quiet future, miss the company of his wife. That moment of irredeemable sadness in this chapter: the man who has it all but is faintly aware he has nothing.
Such a very high stakes game! Lose and you’re dead, win and you live another day but only until Henry’s mood shifts again. I wonder if he’d be so willing to play if Liz and the girls were still alive? Or if he’d take the risks more seriously?
The way HM portrays his loneliness and sadness is one of my favourite aspects of the books. It makes him so human, so relatable - the way it lies just below the surface, suppressed by busyness most of the time, but catching him (us) unawares every now and then.
(Another favourite is the spectacular way the characters burn one another 😂 Seymour’s “I keep my poems for my friends” and Cromwell’s “why would I believe you?” to Geoffrey among others in this chapter, so fabulous!)
You're right about Hilary's portrayal of his humanity, its what keeps him interesting. I try to remember that it is possible for several things to be true at once - that he wants power and to rise in the world, that he wants to be safe and comfortable and quiet, that he wants to improve the condition of his countrymen, and that all of that depends on him keeping Henry happy, sometimes by fairly unpleasant actions. Ultimately, one has to consider ones own skin, even if it leaves us open to criticism. I often think about this when I read the news, where someone 'powerful' has been accused of misbehaving: how different am I from this person, and where is my red line?
My quote of the week: "If rain falls for six months solid and rots the grain in the fields, there must be providence in it; for God knows his trade. It is an outrage to the rich and enterprising, to suggest that they should pay an income tax, only to put bread in the mouths of the workshy. And if Secretary Cromwell argues that famine provokes criminality; well, are there not hangmen enough?"
Close to the bone, in my country at least.
I loved this section: some wonderful writing (even more wonderful than usual) as the pace quickens and Anne’s doom resolves itself. It was a slow start, and I liked that, but now the horrible, deadly chase is on!
I suspect quite a few readers may race ahead at this point!
I actually finished the whole chapter without realizing I was reading ahead! This book is definitely moving faster (and is somewhat more readable) than Wolf Hall was!
I'm not surprised! Each of the three books has its own pace and style. This second one is more like a thriller than anything. The third one is different again.
To be honest, I read the whole thing when I got it, and am now reading back again chapter by chapter. I had read it once before, some years back
Agree
Ha! I just realised that I have done the same!
I’m afraid I raced and raced and raced, I couldn’t stopped myself, and now I’m with The Mirror And The Light! 😱🤦♀️🤷♀️But thoroughly enjoying your texts and all the comments, it allows me to revisit what I’ve ended binge reading, and you have a gift for capturing the essence of each fragment we read, thank you 😊
The highlight of the chapter to me was Cromwell's unexpectedly desperate but fond remembrance of his father Walter. Henry is raging at Cromwell because of Chapuys' impertinence. Henry is everything to Cromwell so to be the object of Henry's rage leaves Cromwell with nothing to hold on to.
But then Cromwell recovers some of his self-esteem by considering how Henry would be unsuitable in Walter's forge, lacking the calm and the wit to survive the forge and Walter's temper. Cromwell then recalls the crossed wrists trick his father showed him to reduce physical pain, although here he uses the trick to reduce his emotional pain.
I've had a similar reaction to a boss being unreasonable to me by recalling some talent I had that was superior to his. It helps.
This is a great bit indeed, although I believe it comes next week in the final part of The Black Book.
I assumed the reading was to finish the chapter. No wonder not took me an extra few days. Sorry about that!
No worries! It is a long chapter! And I think the next chapter is even longer. Will take five weeks to read.
Chapuys and Cromwell fishing sounds like a great "deleted" scene. I imagine Cromwell wouldn't be very good (the one commoner skill he doesn't excel at), catching only small fish, but the ambassador's misery and tangled fishing line would give him, Cromwell, a good chuckle.
You could feel a sense in this section of how Cromwell is hanging in the middle, positioned to study, ally, empathize with anyone as needed, but belonging nowhere and paying the price of loneliness. He’s gotten near enough to influence Henry (and brokenhearted at his indifference), and while he tames the royal lion he stands up for the poor, oversees the political game of chess at court, he builds and builds. If he could he’d build a totalitarian state with himself at the top, and things would run smoothly at long last.
I mention chess because the two Queens at this point are human pieces being shuffled around the board by their two families. I don’t think it’s a coincidence that we got some examples of casual sexism from various Boleyns and Seymours, adding to the dehumanization both women are experiencing. And it’s also no coincidence that Cromwell is the one man feeling sorry for Jane; I said a few weeks ago that his position is parallel to the women’s, someone of inferior status fighting his way up, teased at court, maligned by the public at large. From where he stands, he can understand Jane’s plight a little better, but not enough: he’ll try to sweeten up her sentence even when he’s putting her up for sale. He’s playing the game too. As both women are, Anne always at the attack, Jane prudent and conservative, but like Henry said, she has paws, and paws hide claws.
I also found very interesting the contrast between the Commons and the poor. Another seed of the modern world that Cromwell is helping to plant. Max Weber did say that Protestantism and capitalism were born the same day.
Do you think he's in danger of becoming like Henry? If the totalitarian situation came to pass, would Crumb seek to be beloved while actually being terrifying?
I think the key to a lot of this is that he gives Henry a book by Marsiglio of Padua. This is quite radical: It argues the king gets his sovereignty from the people represented by Parliament. He later talks about how he wants to bring king and people into harmony. And in the future prince he imagines in Anna Regina, we see something like a Philosopher-King, a monarch who is not at odds with his people because he follows sound intellectual reasoning. He knows this is not Henry.
So there is a separation between his ideas in The Book Called Henry, how to serve the current king, and his ideals of the perfect government. I think power and Henry do have an impact of the way he sees the world, and the way he acts, but it is a complex picture full of contradictions.
To me it's a moot point to imagine what kind of leader he'd be, even if he got to mold the prince of his dreams, he, Cromwell would still necessary be behind the scenes, a director rather than a main actor. He'd need a political and societal revolution to get power for himself, and isn't it ironic that a century later another Cromwell will do just that?
Yes, the whole thing is an extended dialogue between pragmatism and idealism. Something that his descendant Oli Crumb will have to find out for himself later on!
True, I had forgotten that passage about his hopes of moulding the future prince. So maybe Crumb is redeemable after all and would be able to fight down is self-serving urges for the greater good,
“If he could he’d build a totalitarian state with himself at the top, and things would run smoothly at long last” - yes! His line about how much quicker he could get in without the Commons was a 🚩
Yes! I never understand when people complain that Cromwell is too "likable" in Wolf Hall, are we reading the same books?
I was struck by Cromwell’s observation that Bess Seymour has "a gift for précis that eludes most of his clerks" - this reminded me of how impressed he was in the first book when Johane neatly summarised the rumours about Henry’s intention to break with Rome ("Johane ... when Parliament meets again, would you like to come down and tell them what you've just said? Because it would save a lot of time.")
I also really enjoyed the insights of Cromwell’s Book Called Henry this week - this description of the psychology of a pampered prince rang true for me: "Henry grew up believing that all the world was his friend and everybody wanted him to be happy. So any pain, any delay, frustration or stroke of ill-luck seems to him an anomaly, an outrage."
And I did have a little chuckle at Henry’s unknowing assumption that Jane's sleeves were a gift from "some poor boy struck with love with her"!
Muskies are similar but a different species. I believe they have them in Vermont.
I'm just joining you and reading the Kindle edition. I appreciate your posting the opening for Week 24. It would be helpful if you'd post the ending sentence. Thanks!
Welcome! I don't have it to hand, but the last sentence will just be the last sentence of this chapter, The Black Book.
Thanks for the quick response. Just figured it out by looking at the schedule. All set!
TC’s description of Henry read to me like Trump “He is never in error. It is only that other people commit errors on his behalf or deceive him with false information”.