These last few reads have left me feeling claustrophobic. I keep seeing the pieces moving closer and closer to Cromwell. This statement. That look. It's all building piece by piece. A masterclass in tension.
The writing here is just unbelievable. The dance between now and then, memory and reality. And that conversation about the wheel. Genius.
This is only the second time I have read this volume, and it’s only now, reading so slowly, with Simon’s help, that I realise why it took Hilary so long to write it. It takes time to craft such words, and to place them, and to set the pace for them.
I think I'm appreciating the difference in Cromwell over time more with this slow read. So much is happening but at the same time there are moments of almost slow motion. Distraction within the action. I'm enjoying it much more this time.
This section started out with a relatively minor subplot and then blossomed as it went on.
I wonder if Mantel was influenced by Dostoyevsky's treatment of Raskolnikov's gathering guilt in Crime and Punishment. Cromwell believes in God and fears punishment, worldly and eternal, despite his judicial veneer of justification. Raskolnikov's act of murder was extra-juridical and his initial defense is that if God does not exist, then anything is permitted.
Both characters fail to keep the guilt at bay, which speaks well of them. And perhaps both authors are telling us that guilt is a natural and normal human condition.
Finally, the last few pages of this chapter (starting with Henry Wyatt's comparison of the character of knights before and after forty years of peace) is stunning writing, the sort that I want to read many times.
I was definitely thinking recently of the parallels to Crime and Punishment. You are Cromwell trying to convince others/himself that these actions are necessary. He is so persuasive that he almost convinces us. He told us in Wolf Hall that Niccolo Machiavelli had not written anything we didn't already know. But the logic of power is corrupting the soul...
1536, the never-ending year. And I have a feeling, that we will return to this crucial year again and again till the end of the trilogy. And Cromwell struggling with what he did, all the memories that come to the surface, it is so well written. To me Cromwell is at the moment not living in the present, but hanging in the past, somewhere in between. There is this feeling, that things begin to slide away from him...
I was looking something up and found something else: In an earlier chapter Suffolk tells Cromwell that he was a great smasher of glasses in his youth, but that he didn't break a glass in years now. With all the mirrors, glasses, reflections references I started to wonder what Suffolk's role in the downfall of C. was, someone else that C. underestimated? (I don't know, my knowledge for 1540 is not good so far other than watching C.'s downfall in the "Tudors' 😂, but the series is so not historically correct in many things🥴)
Smashed glass. Also symbolic of the dissolution of the monasteries. The Tudors is a ludicrous show! 😅 Cromwell in 1536 has no intention of dying in 1540... I'm sure he will make it to a ripe old age and enjoy his retirement in his gardens.
Sure he will, enjoying the twilight years with dear old friend Stephen G. on the garden bench, chatting, exchanging seedlings, later Norfolk will drop by
I think I am finally beginning to understand what this book is about. Listening to it read, having read the week’s portion, takes yet more time and at this slow pace a pattern of haunting emerges.
I may be relieved when 2025 arrives and the ghosts fade.
Not for me. The French Revolution was the point at which I parted company with history after nearly filling my history exercise book with the 40 causes of the French Revolution all copied from the board. Never regretted it!
The image of Jane surrounded by Anne’s castoff belongings has really struck me throughout, and especially this week’s Book of Hours, love notes still intact 🤦🏻♀️. What could have been going through her mind? I would love to know.
Slipping and sliding are good words for this section. I found myself having to re-read paragraphs to get a better hold on what was being said. Your quoted paragraph recalls the end of Mirror also I think...
As for Erasmus, imagine what he'd make of the modern world if he thought there were monsters in Tudor times. Although, history tells us that as a species we are fundamentally unchanged, other than in the tools we use for our barbarism. On this reading, I'm definitely feeling the weight of the dead more, possibly because we read straight through from BUTB (and possibly also because my maudlin mood hasn't lifted). Its making me think of those throughout history who have done what was required of them. Kill or be killed and all that. Ultimately it comes down to survival, no matter how we try to dress up as civilised beings. As someone once said Hell is empty.
On a 'happier' note, I was reading Rosemary Goring's biography of Mary, Queen of Scots this week and was pleased to see Ralph Sadler pop up to inspect the baby queen on behalf of old Henry. I've finally decided to indulge my interest in Scottish history and it was nice to see some familiar names (even if one was Norfolk).
I was wondering what Erasmus would be saying now myself.
I read some about Ralph Sadler future roles - he seems like the most reasonable of them all. Fun to see him turn up in a biography. I may have to check it out.
Its quite readable so far. I've gotten to the 'rough wooing' and read Henry VIII's instructions to one of the Seymour brothers, who was leading the military campaign, to basically destroy every Scottish town he came to. What a great guy.
The pronunciation in Yow and I and Amyas was very interesting- it made me think of Simon Roper on Youtube, who reconstructs past accents: this one is London accents from the 14th century onwards. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3lXv3Tt4x20
Thank you once again for my weekly dose of removing all the ‘smoke and mirrors’ to a more focused ‘mirror and light’. I soak up even innuendo you break down for followers
This week I was taken by the standoff between Cromwell and Margaret Pole - that was a great debate.
I have fallen quite behind after being distracted by getting ready for my son starting secondary school this week, but I'm diving back in where I left off...
This was another fascinating set of notes, thank you. I loved your observations on A Dialogue between Law and Conscience as a possible title & your summary of the trilogy as exploring "the borders between state and religion, law and the individual, Cromwell and his many versions of himself." Thank you too for pointing out how Cromwell’s past pads after him - even after you specifically told me to look out for dogs & cats I missed this one!
I liked the way that this section continued to develop the idea of the burning building from the start of the chapter and the falling roof of the first book:
- "it's not the smoke and flames that kill you, it's the bricks and timbers that fly out when the chimney blows up";
- imagining himself "carrying the maiden from the inferno" but being left sprawling beneath the debris;
- remembering himself at eighteen, "a shattered creature crawling from the battlefield" but now recalling it as though he was blackened from escaping a burning building.
I was quite shocked by Henry’s callousness after Richmond's death when he dismissed Cromwell’s losses with "You cannot know. You have only lost daughters, not sons." But then Henry seemed so small and sad and suddenly human that I almost forgave him when he was described as "weary, as if he might leave off being king, and just walk out into the street and take his chances."
Such disturbing, powerful pages enhanced by the slow read and your commentary. Shock hit me at the eel boy story. The verbal clash between Crumb and Margaret Pole is indeed chilling.
This looping back in time, I noticed the same thing in Season 3 of The Bear, which has been slammed but which I loved for the same reasons I relish Mantel’s persistent retelling of the past.
I’ve not watched The Bear but I love books and programs which revisit events from differing perspectives too. The first pass tells you only the surface layer. How she reveals Cromwell’s motives in gradual layers even though it’s hinted at before
These last few reads have left me feeling claustrophobic. I keep seeing the pieces moving closer and closer to Cromwell. This statement. That look. It's all building piece by piece. A masterclass in tension.
The writing here is just unbelievable. The dance between now and then, memory and reality. And that conversation about the wheel. Genius.
Yes, its getting tense now. All the foreshadowing is making me sad!
This is only the second time I have read this volume, and it’s only now, reading so slowly, with Simon’s help, that I realise why it took Hilary so long to write it. It takes time to craft such words, and to place them, and to set the pace for them.
This is my third time Susan, and I am learning so much just by slowing down. Eye-opening!
I think I'm appreciating the difference in Cromwell over time more with this slow read. So much is happening but at the same time there are moments of almost slow motion. Distraction within the action. I'm enjoying it much more this time.
Simon, eternally grateful for this read-along.
This section started out with a relatively minor subplot and then blossomed as it went on.
I wonder if Mantel was influenced by Dostoyevsky's treatment of Raskolnikov's gathering guilt in Crime and Punishment. Cromwell believes in God and fears punishment, worldly and eternal, despite his judicial veneer of justification. Raskolnikov's act of murder was extra-juridical and his initial defense is that if God does not exist, then anything is permitted.
Both characters fail to keep the guilt at bay, which speaks well of them. And perhaps both authors are telling us that guilt is a natural and normal human condition.
Finally, the last few pages of this chapter (starting with Henry Wyatt's comparison of the character of knights before and after forty years of peace) is stunning writing, the sort that I want to read many times.
I was definitely thinking recently of the parallels to Crime and Punishment. You are Cromwell trying to convince others/himself that these actions are necessary. He is so persuasive that he almost convinces us. He told us in Wolf Hall that Niccolo Machiavelli had not written anything we didn't already know. But the logic of power is corrupting the soul...
1536, the never-ending year. And I have a feeling, that we will return to this crucial year again and again till the end of the trilogy. And Cromwell struggling with what he did, all the memories that come to the surface, it is so well written. To me Cromwell is at the moment not living in the present, but hanging in the past, somewhere in between. There is this feeling, that things begin to slide away from him...
I was looking something up and found something else: In an earlier chapter Suffolk tells Cromwell that he was a great smasher of glasses in his youth, but that he didn't break a glass in years now. With all the mirrors, glasses, reflections references I started to wonder what Suffolk's role in the downfall of C. was, someone else that C. underestimated? (I don't know, my knowledge for 1540 is not good so far other than watching C.'s downfall in the "Tudors' 😂, but the series is so not historically correct in many things🥴)
Smashed glass. Also symbolic of the dissolution of the monasteries. The Tudors is a ludicrous show! 😅 Cromwell in 1536 has no intention of dying in 1540... I'm sure he will make it to a ripe old age and enjoy his retirement in his gardens.
Sure he will, enjoying the twilight years with dear old friend Stephen G. on the garden bench, chatting, exchanging seedlings, later Norfolk will drop by
Honestly though wouldn’t this be so nice?
Yes, it is would, i see them laughing at Henry and making fun of him
I think I am finally beginning to understand what this book is about. Listening to it read, having read the week’s portion, takes yet more time and at this slow pace a pattern of haunting emerges.
I may be relieved when 2025 arrives and the ghosts fade.
We'll be replacing them with some French ghosts 😂
Not for me. The French Revolution was the point at which I parted company with history after nearly filling my history exercise book with the 40 causes of the French Revolution all copied from the board. Never regretted it!
Ah that's a shame. A Place of Greater Safety is something else! 🤯
The image of Jane surrounded by Anne’s castoff belongings has really struck me throughout, and especially this week’s Book of Hours, love notes still intact 🤦🏻♀️. What could have been going through her mind? I would love to know.
Jane is endlessly fascinating. How different things would have been if she had survived.
Slipping and sliding are good words for this section. I found myself having to re-read paragraphs to get a better hold on what was being said. Your quoted paragraph recalls the end of Mirror also I think...
As for Erasmus, imagine what he'd make of the modern world if he thought there were monsters in Tudor times. Although, history tells us that as a species we are fundamentally unchanged, other than in the tools we use for our barbarism. On this reading, I'm definitely feeling the weight of the dead more, possibly because we read straight through from BUTB (and possibly also because my maudlin mood hasn't lifted). Its making me think of those throughout history who have done what was required of them. Kill or be killed and all that. Ultimately it comes down to survival, no matter how we try to dress up as civilised beings. As someone once said Hell is empty.
On a 'happier' note, I was reading Rosemary Goring's biography of Mary, Queen of Scots this week and was pleased to see Ralph Sadler pop up to inspect the baby queen on behalf of old Henry. I've finally decided to indulge my interest in Scottish history and it was nice to see some familiar names (even if one was Norfolk).
I was wondering what Erasmus would be saying now myself.
I read some about Ralph Sadler future roles - he seems like the most reasonable of them all. Fun to see him turn up in a biography. I may have to check it out.
Its quite readable so far. I've gotten to the 'rough wooing' and read Henry VIII's instructions to one of the Seymour brothers, who was leading the military campaign, to basically destroy every Scottish town he came to. What a great guy.
I loved every word of this.
Another week of fabulous writing.
The pronunciation in Yow and I and Amyas was very interesting- it made me think of Simon Roper on Youtube, who reconstructs past accents: this one is London accents from the 14th century onwards. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3lXv3Tt4x20
He has another about the way monarchs spoke, but it only goes back to the late 1600s... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KYaqdJ35fPg
Oh, those are great. Thanks so much for sharing.
Thank you once again for my weekly dose of removing all the ‘smoke and mirrors’ to a more focused ‘mirror and light’. I soak up even innuendo you break down for followers
This week I was taken by the standoff between Cromwell and Margaret Pole - that was a great debate.
I have fallen quite behind after being distracted by getting ready for my son starting secondary school this week, but I'm diving back in where I left off...
This was another fascinating set of notes, thank you. I loved your observations on A Dialogue between Law and Conscience as a possible title & your summary of the trilogy as exploring "the borders between state and religion, law and the individual, Cromwell and his many versions of himself." Thank you too for pointing out how Cromwell’s past pads after him - even after you specifically told me to look out for dogs & cats I missed this one!
I liked the way that this section continued to develop the idea of the burning building from the start of the chapter and the falling roof of the first book:
- "it's not the smoke and flames that kill you, it's the bricks and timbers that fly out when the chimney blows up";
- imagining himself "carrying the maiden from the inferno" but being left sprawling beneath the debris;
- remembering himself at eighteen, "a shattered creature crawling from the battlefield" but now recalling it as though he was blackened from escaping a burning building.
I was quite shocked by Henry’s callousness after Richmond's death when he dismissed Cromwell’s losses with "You cannot know. You have only lost daughters, not sons." But then Henry seemed so small and sad and suddenly human that I almost forgave him when he was described as "weary, as if he might leave off being king, and just walk out into the street and take his chances."
Yes, I am intrigued by Jane. Does anyone have any recommendations on biographies or good historical fiction about pasty Jane?
Elizabeth Norton is a very reliable historian of the period. I heard her speak at the Wolf Hall Weekend: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Jane-Seymour-Henry-VIIIs-True/dp/1848685270?dplnkId=fdc9330f-89e5-44ad-9930-28120b92f925
Such disturbing, powerful pages enhanced by the slow read and your commentary. Shock hit me at the eel boy story. The verbal clash between Crumb and Margaret Pole is indeed chilling.
It’s so fascinating how they keep looping back over the past events. Loving it.
This looping back in time, I noticed the same thing in Season 3 of The Bear, which has been slammed but which I loved for the same reasons I relish Mantel’s persistent retelling of the past.
I’ve not watched The Bear but I love books and programs which revisit events from differing perspectives too. The first pass tells you only the surface layer. How she reveals Cromwell’s motives in gradual layers even though it’s hinted at before