thank you Simon, so much to think about as always.
As an aside, the relationship between the British aristocracy and the royal of houses of India is fascinating. A good book about an interesting figure is Anita Anand's "Sophia: Princess, Suffragette, Revolutionary" - about the granddaughter of Maharjah Ranjit Singh, who was raised at Hampton Court Palace, as the Goddaughter of Queen Victoria. All of the complexities of the Anglo-Indian experience and history contained in one life.
I cringed as George railed against the “useless rubbish“ that Hari’s ancestors had collected somehow thinking that Hari believes the same thing. But he has grossly misread the situation and doesn’t realize it until it’s too late.
Yes. What I like about this conversation is that I sympathise with both Fleury and Hari and can see where they are coming from. It is funny, and awkward, but there is too much mutual incomprehension.
The only thing wrong with this slow read, from my point of view, is that it's not slow enough. There is so much going on in these two chapters, that I think we could almost be doing it a page at a time. There are so many examples of the gulph between the English and the Indians, but I think the outstanding one is, what was to Fluery, the "trivial incident" of his glass being dropped and broken, inferring that his "touch [is] pollution". It is a *servant* who does this; a similar class of person to the soldiers who have mutinied, and representing the overwhelming bulk of the population, as opposed to the Maharajas and upper classes. (Tolstoy's theory of history being moved forward by the mass of ordinary people, immediately springs to mind.)
There is so much black humour, from the so-called Prime Minister reduced to baby-sitting, to the Magistrate's demand for labour from the canny landowners, who all know that he knows the demand won't be met.
I also loved the bit about the gods in ancient times settling disputes by "hurling pieces of the continent at one another." It reminded me of the Australian aborigines and the stories of the rainbow snake moving across the land and creating all the features of the landscape. It's really wonderful how people in very ancient times made up such wonderful tales to account for the earth, much more fun than tectonic plates, etc.
As for Fluery, I feel sorry for this poor bloke. All on the same page he had the worry of this unruly elder sister, who just happened to have "supervised" his childhood, now having her own *opinions*, coupled with the real concern of hoping he never has to beat a Hindu....*In Case He Kills Him.*
The barefooted servants in their "grimy livery and knee breeches", happily reminded me of my mother! My parents visited me in Goroka, Papua New Guinea in 1970. We went to a local hotel for dinner. The native waiters looked quite smart in black lap-laps and white shirts (no grime) but ....they were barefooted! Poor mum was very taken aback, somewhat mortified actually!
On P92 of my book the Collector praises the foundations of the "new man" from Faith and Science to Crop Rotations, and on the opposite page the downside of Science, "mercury vapour" and other toxic fumes are poisoning the atmosphere. I love the juxtaposition of these two faces of Science, all while Miram is being slowly stupified by the fumes of the opium factory.
Everything is such a schmozzle: Hari and Fluery are at odds with each other; the English are generally at odds with the Indians, and also at odds with each other, including the two senior administrators, Hopkins and Willoughby. It doesn't look good for anyone.
But as a professional geophysicist, I take umbrage at the idea that major swaths of the earth’s outer shell jostling about creating mountains and deep trenches is not fun. I’ll admit that rainbow snakes are more fun, but I’m still having fun with the plates, and the saucers too.😉
The prime minister following to watch Harry is as hilarious as the creation of a Prime Minister role itself. I assume that's another British imposition. He's playing the role assigned to him.
Oh Simon, I really didn't mean that as a criticism of you, it's just that this is a really dense text, and I was being a bit tongue in cheek. You are really doing wonderfully well managing all this. And I completely forgot to mention how marvellous all the very many footnotes are. I am enjoying them so much and have learned such a lot. I'm dazzled that you can find so many. I am in awe of what you do, Simon. bravo 👏 👏
Oh, I didn't take it as a criticism. Just agreement that I think we should have given more time for this book. I'd allotted one day a week to work on it, but currently all the rabbit holes are asking for more like two!
There is just so much good information to try and absorb, both in the background and in the text itself. It can be hard to know where to focus. An alternate approach would be to read one chapter every three days.
Simon -- thank you so much for your tremendous footnotes and explorations. This my second read of Siege and, as many have said, it's a dense book and your notes have provided wonderful context and opportunities for further exploration. I find the visit to Hari both comic and deeply frustrating. It's a very complex situation in which -- as others have said -- you can't help but see the missed opportunities. Fleury is less burdened by the casual prejudices of the more established Company hands, and yet even he is blinded by his own biases, about religion and culture. Whereas Hari is trying to impress by being the "perfect Englishman" but is quick to take any slight. Reading this, I find myself wondering what the British made of the very complex, very ancient and multi-layered cultures they encountered in India. I think someone else mentioned in the comments before that perhaps it made them feel insecure, and fed into their defensiveness. I don't see Fleury that way, at least, but even he and Hari struggle to find common ground. I also appreciate Farrell's use of ironic juxtaposition -- such as everyone wanting to visit the opium factory as some apex example of civilization.
Isn't it fascinating (and horrifying) to look at things like the opium factory with the knowledge of the opium wars with China and the eventual outlawing of its consumption. How something can be true one day and then false the next. I think there's also something to compare between the factory tour and Miriam's distracted but cheerful responses and the palace tour with its stifling heat and George's distracted and critical responses.
Finished chapter 4 yesterday and feeling ready to dive into the next two chapters after catching up with the reading guide (which as always is detailed and informative with many delightful rabbit holes to follow). I keep getting the urge to re-read the Flashman books by George Macdonald Fraser. I devoured them in my late teens on a recommendation from my dad and in a roundabout way I think they gave me a good grounding in 19th British imperial history. Or at least a grasp of the basics from which to read the “true” history.
Most of my 19th century history 'knowledge' comes from Bernard Cornwell's Sharpe series. Some of them are set in India and I have an abiding interest in the Peninsular War for some reason, possibly because I tend to think of everything after that point as 'modern' history 😂
Yes! I too have an interest in the peninsula war that’s definitely Richard Sharpe related (or Sean Bean playing him!). See also: the Aubrey and Maturin series.
Thank you for all the detail. I was struggling with some of the references, but now much clearer. Still feeling mixed emotions - humour and unease.. intrigued as to what happens next .. 👍
I am enjoying the ironic tone of the writing, and agree there is so much more to discover in the book. Thank you Simon for all the notes and footnotes.
Is anybody else keeping a list of characters with a few notes? And new words list? I was spoiled by the characters feature in War and Peace though I admit it was needed more than with this quick read.
I'll admit I've had to check back a couple of times to remind myself of who's who...! especially when it's a week between chapters/sections (vs daily W&P).
So many words to look up related to Indian terms and “ civilization”. Grateful for the footnotes. One thing I will give to the native Indians is the gleeful scene down in the flood plains. A break from all the British stuffiness and superiority is needed 🙄
I was struck by the parallel of Fleury being almost overcome by the mercury fumes while his sister succumbs to the opium vapors, and Harry practically faints from who knows what (not to mention everyone else in the palace in a sort of stupor). You're right, Simon, it is like they are enchanted. I'm really enjoying this book, and the footnotes and agents as well!
The description of one of the Collector's "beloved objects", the bas-relief entitled The Spirit of Science Conquers Ignorance and Prejudice, really struck me this week, because of its layers of irony. Whose ignorance and whose prejudice, I guess we're being invited to ponder, not to mention who's going to be on the receiving end of that uncomfortable sabre...
Yes, doesn't the 'whose' depend on which side the viewer is on? If there is such a thing as sides. Its a problem of the Good vs Evil idea - the good guys are the bad guys when viewed from the other side.
Question for Simon or other readers: is there a significance to George being called “Dobbin” by his sister? It immediately brought to mind one of the main characters of Vanity Fair to mind, who was a bit bumbly and awkward, but I don’t know if there might be some other reason for the name.
Fell down a rabbit hole in the Yogi as Hermit, etc. on the link about the East India Company, very interesting maps that show the princely states scattered about, as well as lots of other facts. Maps are such helpful visuals.
thank you Simon, so much to think about as always.
As an aside, the relationship between the British aristocracy and the royal of houses of India is fascinating. A good book about an interesting figure is Anita Anand's "Sophia: Princess, Suffragette, Revolutionary" - about the granddaughter of Maharjah Ranjit Singh, who was raised at Hampton Court Palace, as the Goddaughter of Queen Victoria. All of the complexities of the Anglo-Indian experience and history contained in one life.
Thank you for the recommendations! This sounds fascinating!
Oh yes! See Episode 12 of the Empire podcast by Anita Anand.
Thanks for the recommendation, I'll definitely be checking this out.
I cringed as George railed against the “useless rubbish“ that Hari’s ancestors had collected somehow thinking that Hari believes the same thing. But he has grossly misread the situation and doesn’t realize it until it’s too late.
Yes. What I like about this conversation is that I sympathise with both Fleury and Hari and can see where they are coming from. It is funny, and awkward, but there is too much mutual incomprehension.
Through George’s visits we get to see the Anglo misunderstanding/mistreatment of first the servants and second of the ruling class.
Absolutely. I flinched with each 'ancestors' comment.
The only thing wrong with this slow read, from my point of view, is that it's not slow enough. There is so much going on in these two chapters, that I think we could almost be doing it a page at a time. There are so many examples of the gulph between the English and the Indians, but I think the outstanding one is, what was to Fluery, the "trivial incident" of his glass being dropped and broken, inferring that his "touch [is] pollution". It is a *servant* who does this; a similar class of person to the soldiers who have mutinied, and representing the overwhelming bulk of the population, as opposed to the Maharajas and upper classes. (Tolstoy's theory of history being moved forward by the mass of ordinary people, immediately springs to mind.)
There is so much black humour, from the so-called Prime Minister reduced to baby-sitting, to the Magistrate's demand for labour from the canny landowners, who all know that he knows the demand won't be met.
I also loved the bit about the gods in ancient times settling disputes by "hurling pieces of the continent at one another." It reminded me of the Australian aborigines and the stories of the rainbow snake moving across the land and creating all the features of the landscape. It's really wonderful how people in very ancient times made up such wonderful tales to account for the earth, much more fun than tectonic plates, etc.
As for Fluery, I feel sorry for this poor bloke. All on the same page he had the worry of this unruly elder sister, who just happened to have "supervised" his childhood, now having her own *opinions*, coupled with the real concern of hoping he never has to beat a Hindu....*In Case He Kills Him.*
The barefooted servants in their "grimy livery and knee breeches", happily reminded me of my mother! My parents visited me in Goroka, Papua New Guinea in 1970. We went to a local hotel for dinner. The native waiters looked quite smart in black lap-laps and white shirts (no grime) but ....they were barefooted! Poor mum was very taken aback, somewhat mortified actually!
On P92 of my book the Collector praises the foundations of the "new man" from Faith and Science to Crop Rotations, and on the opposite page the downside of Science, "mercury vapour" and other toxic fumes are poisoning the atmosphere. I love the juxtaposition of these two faces of Science, all while Miram is being slowly stupified by the fumes of the opium factory.
Everything is such a schmozzle: Hari and Fluery are at odds with each other; the English are generally at odds with the Indians, and also at odds with each other, including the two senior administrators, Hopkins and Willoughby. It doesn't look good for anyone.
But as a professional geophysicist, I take umbrage at the idea that major swaths of the earth’s outer shell jostling about creating mountains and deep trenches is not fun. I’ll admit that rainbow snakes are more fun, but I’m still having fun with the plates, and the saucers too.😉
Ha!
😂😊
The prime minister following to watch Harry is as hilarious as the creation of a Prime Minister role itself. I assume that's another British imposition. He's playing the role assigned to him.
Totally agree with this. We could be reading at half the speed, shouldn't we? So hard to get these things right!
Oh Simon, I really didn't mean that as a criticism of you, it's just that this is a really dense text, and I was being a bit tongue in cheek. You are really doing wonderfully well managing all this. And I completely forgot to mention how marvellous all the very many footnotes are. I am enjoying them so much and have learned such a lot. I'm dazzled that you can find so many. I am in awe of what you do, Simon. bravo 👏 👏
Oh, I didn't take it as a criticism. Just agreement that I think we should have given more time for this book. I'd allotted one day a week to work on it, but currently all the rabbit holes are asking for more like two!
There is just so much good information to try and absorb, both in the background and in the text itself. It can be hard to know where to focus. An alternate approach would be to read one chapter every three days.
As always, thank you very much. I am in my little bubble with the books and your notes.
Simon -- thank you so much for your tremendous footnotes and explorations. This my second read of Siege and, as many have said, it's a dense book and your notes have provided wonderful context and opportunities for further exploration. I find the visit to Hari both comic and deeply frustrating. It's a very complex situation in which -- as others have said -- you can't help but see the missed opportunities. Fleury is less burdened by the casual prejudices of the more established Company hands, and yet even he is blinded by his own biases, about religion and culture. Whereas Hari is trying to impress by being the "perfect Englishman" but is quick to take any slight. Reading this, I find myself wondering what the British made of the very complex, very ancient and multi-layered cultures they encountered in India. I think someone else mentioned in the comments before that perhaps it made them feel insecure, and fed into their defensiveness. I don't see Fleury that way, at least, but even he and Hari struggle to find common ground. I also appreciate Farrell's use of ironic juxtaposition -- such as everyone wanting to visit the opium factory as some apex example of civilization.
Isn't it fascinating (and horrifying) to look at things like the opium factory with the knowledge of the opium wars with China and the eventual outlawing of its consumption. How something can be true one day and then false the next. I think there's also something to compare between the factory tour and Miriam's distracted but cheerful responses and the palace tour with its stifling heat and George's distracted and critical responses.
Finished chapter 4 yesterday and feeling ready to dive into the next two chapters after catching up with the reading guide (which as always is detailed and informative with many delightful rabbit holes to follow). I keep getting the urge to re-read the Flashman books by George Macdonald Fraser. I devoured them in my late teens on a recommendation from my dad and in a roundabout way I think they gave me a good grounding in 19th British imperial history. Or at least a grasp of the basics from which to read the “true” history.
Most of my 19th century history 'knowledge' comes from Bernard Cornwell's Sharpe series. Some of them are set in India and I have an abiding interest in the Peninsular War for some reason, possibly because I tend to think of everything after that point as 'modern' history 😂
Yes! I too have an interest in the peninsula war that’s definitely Richard Sharpe related (or Sean Bean playing him!). See also: the Aubrey and Maturin series.
Thank you for all the detail. I was struggling with some of the references, but now much clearer. Still feeling mixed emotions - humour and unease.. intrigued as to what happens next .. 👍
Thanks, Simon, my head is reeling with all the info. Fascinating, thank you!
I am enjoying the ironic tone of the writing, and agree there is so much more to discover in the book. Thank you Simon for all the notes and footnotes.
Is anybody else keeping a list of characters with a few notes? And new words list? I was spoiled by the characters feature in War and Peace though I admit it was needed more than with this quick read.
I wish I had time to do this for every book we do - it was so time-consuming! Fortunately, there are only a few characters in this book.
I'll admit I've had to check back a couple of times to remind myself of who's who...! especially when it's a week between chapters/sections (vs daily W&P).
So many words to look up related to Indian terms and “ civilization”. Grateful for the footnotes. One thing I will give to the native Indians is the gleeful scene down in the flood plains. A break from all the British stuffiness and superiority is needed 🙄
I was struck by the parallel of Fleury being almost overcome by the mercury fumes while his sister succumbs to the opium vapors, and Harry practically faints from who knows what (not to mention everyone else in the palace in a sort of stupor). You're right, Simon, it is like they are enchanted. I'm really enjoying this book, and the footnotes and agents as well!
Yes! Everyone is asleep while trouble is brewing. Nothing changes 😬
The description of one of the Collector's "beloved objects", the bas-relief entitled The Spirit of Science Conquers Ignorance and Prejudice, really struck me this week, because of its layers of irony. Whose ignorance and whose prejudice, I guess we're being invited to ponder, not to mention who's going to be on the receiving end of that uncomfortable sabre...
Yes, doesn't the 'whose' depend on which side the viewer is on? If there is such a thing as sides. Its a problem of the Good vs Evil idea - the good guys are the bad guys when viewed from the other side.
Really interesting reading the fate of the Maharajas. I am curious to see where those families are now almost 80 years later.
That link I shared catches up with some of those families: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-66370541 but I'm sure there is more out there.
Question for Simon or other readers: is there a significance to George being called “Dobbin” by his sister? It immediately brought to mind one of the main characters of Vanity Fair to mind, who was a bit bumbly and awkward, but I don’t know if there might be some other reason for the name.
I don't know! But a fascinating little rabbit hole to fall down...
“A quiet, plodding horse” according to Merriam Webster dictionary
Definitely not what a young man about town in the latest of fashions wants to be called by his elder sister, in public no less!
It makes me think of a horse or a mule...
Fell down a rabbit hole in the Yogi as Hermit, etc. on the link about the East India Company, very interesting maps that show the princely states scattered about, as well as lots of other facts. Maps are such helpful visuals.