Oh, I get to be first with 'there’s nothing in this breathing world so gratifying as an artfully placed semicolon'. I wondered how much of this was Mantel speaking through Camille.
Along with many others, I'm firmly in the befuddled camp.
I found the quotation at the beginning of the chapter really helpful: it gave me a clue what to look out for.
What I'm finding interesting - if a little tricky to follow - is the sense of absolute chaos. You can see that things are already basically out of hand, so when it trips into the Reign of Terror, it's not really going to be a surprise.
The line from Harold Macmillan about "Events, dear boy" comes to mind. There are so many things happening, not necessarily directly related but which will be connected in retrospect. Although it's a bit Greek drama the way we hear about lots of things rather than see them, that probably puts us in the same position as many of the characters.
I can't help thinking that much of the current populism feels like an echo of these events: and surely a warning to those stirring up anger that things may not go as they plan. It's the way things turn on a sixpence that is shocking. One minute the crowd is baying for blood, the next there are shouts of Vive la Reine!
I like the way that - so far, at least - we don't really get a view of Marie Antoinette. We get people's views of her, but very little direct - and that puts us in the same position as most of the people.
The Marat line is chilling, and probably reflects what many people think when they lead revolutions. I remember hearing somebody talking at the time about the Ceaușescus, saying that if they hadn't been killed immediately it may have led to further bloodshed. I'm not totally convinced - and the deaths of Louis and Marie Antoinette didn't exactly slow things down.
But, after all that, we get the semi colon. It's Heaven.
[1] As others have noted, what a profoundly spot-on opening quote to Part Three: "Tell many people that your reputation is great; they will repeat it, and these reputations will make your reputation." A fantastic semicolon usage, too! (This is basically the Footnotes & Tangents marketing plan, too, right? 😂)
[2] The line from the end of one of Camille's "crumpled papers" that stands out to me is this one: "today there no longer exist among the French any distinctions but those of virtue and talent." This feels like a haunting foreshadowing of so many other movements, when phrases like "meritocracy," etc., spring up and ignorantly look past very real barriers and distinctions.
[3] At the same time, there is an acknowledgment of the power of conviction itself later on: "That young man will go far," he said. "He believes everything he says." The power in that foolish arrogance of conviction? It is an important ingredient in the French Revolution, I think, and of so much else that would happen after, stretching to today...
[4] "Writing's like running downhill; can't stop if you want to." If only we had heeded this wisdom before we unleashed social media on society, right?
(Also: almost fully caught up on on all the Revolutions podcast episodes, too, and they are making quite a difference in my enjoyment/confidence with this book, I'll add!)
The rapid banalization of violence and cruelty was very striking in this section -- another thing that's like running downhill, and you can't halt even if you want to... The hair-tossing was hilarious! Wonderfully incongruous (although I guess it's all part of the fixation with heads). Loved the Piaf clip! Always incomparable.
I love how the women draw attention to all that male public posing and posturing. And Camille has that unruly head of hair, you can just imagine it getting in his way!
For more on Grace Elliott, I recommend Eric Rohmer's late film L'Anglaise et le Duc/The Lady and the Duke. It was adapted from her memoirs. I saw it more than 20 years ago, but I still remember how atmospheric it was even though most of the bloody events are "noises off."
I think this week, more so than any other week, has been the most befuddling for me. I suddenly feel like I can't parse these characters' motivations - what is Danton up to, hiding in his house? Why does Camille laugh so hard at Brissot's comments? Are Robespierre and Danton really not friends? Many questions! The revelations about the English funding went totally over my head (my margin note just says, in reference to Elliot, "Who?"). I look forward to reading everyone's comments and questions, and will probably re-read this and the last few chapters this week or next to see if it is more clear for me the second time round!
I think a Greater State of Befuddlement is something that we must get used to in this book! Being in the belly of the beast is going to have an unsettling and confusing effect on our mind and body...
For the Grace Elliot reference, see https://footnotesandtangents.substack.com/i/165086435/british-spies. Camille is as confused as us to learn that the revolutionaries are taking money from the British monarchy. And it is the first indication that they can be bought and see to be bought. A matter that will be used against them later on.
Danton stays at home because Danton is looking after Danton. You may remember that he used the same excuse of an important Shipping case during the July riots. He stays away from these unpredictable events to see how they play out. He is an opportunist who takes advantage of the chaos to rise to the top.
Unlike Robespierre, who is a pure man of virtue. Which answers one of your other questions: no, I don't think Danton and Robespierre are friends. Their motivations are so very different, and all they have in common is Camille and a shared belief that the revolution must go further and deeper.
As for why Camille finds Brissot so funny, I would love to see what other people think. Brissot is an optimist, he likes to say the past was dreadful and things can only get better. Camille is a doomster who thinks and hopes that everything is still going to get much much worse. Perhaps Brissot's sunny disposition just cracks him up, as it seems so far from what Camille thinks is the reality.
Thank you for these insights, and for the Greater State of Befuddlement - happy to reside there!
I did chuckle when Danton was asked if he was missing the riot because of the same case from back in July, and he replied that it was the appeal. Convenient indeed!
I too am interested in others’ takes on Camille’s laughter. You could be right, it’s a clash of dispositions. And Camille does seem prone to delirious glee (among other things).
I’m glad to join the conversation here at last after needing to catch up during the first few weeks. Once again, as was true last year with War and Peace and the Cromwell trilogy, Simon’s background info and links make everything so much more fun and understandable. This week, I especially loved reading Mantel’s review of Lawday’s biography of Danton, which she chides for being far too fluffy in its portrayal of this fascinatingly complex man. Thank you for that link, Simon!
Btw, Mantel saw Lawday’s version of Danton as a reflection of the one portrayed by Gérard Depardieu in the 1983 film, which was mentioned in an earlier conversation. I had watched the first hour of that film and then turned it off, as I found Depardieu’s Danton uncomfortably simplistic. I agree with Mantel: Danton’s a far more intriguing and complicated character than that!
Ça ira, ça ira: immediate flashbacks to the Paris Olympics opening ceremony and the headless lady at the Conciergerie. And that in turn reminded me of the excellent Comte de Saint-Germain series of substack posts in which the opening ceremony was explained in detail (this is just one part out of six): https://open.substack.com/pub/walkparis/p/the-whole-ceremony-was-very-you-part?r=4w0sx&utm_medium=ios
(1) I am curious to what extent Mantel's description of the day-to-day details is informed/inspired by sources (letters, journals, etc.) and how much is pure imagination. For example, the bit about Camille taking hours-long lunches and returning drunk so he didn't ever apologize, would that type of thing been known about him or just invented but consistent with her impression of the character? (I'm still calibrating myself to genre of historical fiction...)
(2) I'm also curious if anyone has read "The Marquis: Lafayette Reconsidered," by Laura Auricchio? It has been buried on my future reads list for a while, and this may be an excuse to start bumping it up.
Mostly informed and inspired from sources. Mantel's unusual among historical novelists in the extent of her research. I recommend re-reading her authors note at the beginning of the novel where she talks about how to tell the difference between fact and fiction in her books. She did set the bar punishingly high.
“Writing’s like running downhill; can’t stop if you want to.” - now I have an image of Camille, the loose cannon, hurtling downhill at that cheese-rolling contest.
I’m behind on my re-reading of this section, so I may be back later.
Just a heads up that the V&A in London have just released tickets for their Marie Antoinette exhibition in the Autumn. They seem to be going fast.....https://www.vam.ac.uk/exhibitions/marie-antoinette
Apart from the appalling savagery (and they haven’t really got going yet!) and that lovely Mantelian aside “There’s nothing in this breathing world so gratifying as an artfully placed semicolon “, what most struck me this time was the revelation that the British were financing a great deal of the mayhem. Plus ça change, etc: great powers thinking they can control events…. If it’s true. Does anyone know what evidence there is of this? I’m not saying I don’t believe it—it’s all too likely—I’d just like to know the facts, such as they may be. Grace Elliot may be one’s guide here?
Yes, I started digging last week but didn't find anything categorical. I get the impression that the British were primarily interested in getting the National Assembly to dissolve the alliance between Spain and France. Revolutionaries did accuse each other of being in the pay of foreign powers, but I don't know how much truth there was in it.
Not sure if we've touched on this already and I've missed it, but what's going on with Mirabeau and his "slaves"? I took that to be his playful and derogatory way of referring to his various hangers-on, but I'm not sure I'm right about that. And are they all Swiss? What's the deal?!
Yes, you're right, I haven't covered this at all yet. In 1782, there was a short-lived revolution in Geneva aimed at widening the franchise and breaking the oligarchies that ruled the city. The revolution was crushed with the help of the French, and the revolutionaries went into exile. Many gravitated towards Mirabeau, at that point one of the most recognizable revolutionary figureheads. It looks like he enjoyed the attention, but he's far more interested in his own greatness than the success of any cause.
Oh, I get to be first with 'there’s nothing in this breathing world so gratifying as an artfully placed semicolon'. I wondered how much of this was Mantel speaking through Camille.
She did love a semicolon!
My fave excerpt this week too!
That was such a fantastic passage! I went to highlight that line and ended up highlighting the whole page.
Along with many others, I'm firmly in the befuddled camp.
I found the quotation at the beginning of the chapter really helpful: it gave me a clue what to look out for.
What I'm finding interesting - if a little tricky to follow - is the sense of absolute chaos. You can see that things are already basically out of hand, so when it trips into the Reign of Terror, it's not really going to be a surprise.
The line from Harold Macmillan about "Events, dear boy" comes to mind. There are so many things happening, not necessarily directly related but which will be connected in retrospect. Although it's a bit Greek drama the way we hear about lots of things rather than see them, that probably puts us in the same position as many of the characters.
I can't help thinking that much of the current populism feels like an echo of these events: and surely a warning to those stirring up anger that things may not go as they plan. It's the way things turn on a sixpence that is shocking. One minute the crowd is baying for blood, the next there are shouts of Vive la Reine!
I like the way that - so far, at least - we don't really get a view of Marie Antoinette. We get people's views of her, but very little direct - and that puts us in the same position as most of the people.
The Marat line is chilling, and probably reflects what many people think when they lead revolutions. I remember hearing somebody talking at the time about the Ceaușescus, saying that if they hadn't been killed immediately it may have led to further bloodshed. I'm not totally convinced - and the deaths of Louis and Marie Antoinette didn't exactly slow things down.
But, after all that, we get the semi colon. It's Heaven.
Four thoughts from this reading:
[1] As others have noted, what a profoundly spot-on opening quote to Part Three: "Tell many people that your reputation is great; they will repeat it, and these reputations will make your reputation." A fantastic semicolon usage, too! (This is basically the Footnotes & Tangents marketing plan, too, right? 😂)
[2] The line from the end of one of Camille's "crumpled papers" that stands out to me is this one: "today there no longer exist among the French any distinctions but those of virtue and talent." This feels like a haunting foreshadowing of so many other movements, when phrases like "meritocracy," etc., spring up and ignorantly look past very real barriers and distinctions.
[3] At the same time, there is an acknowledgment of the power of conviction itself later on: "That young man will go far," he said. "He believes everything he says." The power in that foolish arrogance of conviction? It is an important ingredient in the French Revolution, I think, and of so much else that would happen after, stretching to today...
[4] "Writing's like running downhill; can't stop if you want to." If only we had heeded this wisdom before we unleashed social media on society, right?
(Also: almost fully caught up on on all the Revolutions podcast episodes, too, and they are making quite a difference in my enjoyment/confidence with this book, I'll add!)
The rapid banalization of violence and cruelty was very striking in this section -- another thing that's like running downhill, and you can't halt even if you want to... The hair-tossing was hilarious! Wonderfully incongruous (although I guess it's all part of the fixation with heads). Loved the Piaf clip! Always incomparable.
I love how the women draw attention to all that male public posing and posturing. And Camille has that unruly head of hair, you can just imagine it getting in his way!
For more on Grace Elliott, I recommend Eric Rohmer's late film L'Anglaise et le Duc/The Lady and the Duke. It was adapted from her memoirs. I saw it more than 20 years ago, but I still remember how atmospheric it was even though most of the bloody events are "noises off."
I think this week, more so than any other week, has been the most befuddling for me. I suddenly feel like I can't parse these characters' motivations - what is Danton up to, hiding in his house? Why does Camille laugh so hard at Brissot's comments? Are Robespierre and Danton really not friends? Many questions! The revelations about the English funding went totally over my head (my margin note just says, in reference to Elliot, "Who?"). I look forward to reading everyone's comments and questions, and will probably re-read this and the last few chapters this week or next to see if it is more clear for me the second time round!
I think a Greater State of Befuddlement is something that we must get used to in this book! Being in the belly of the beast is going to have an unsettling and confusing effect on our mind and body...
For the Grace Elliot reference, see https://footnotesandtangents.substack.com/i/165086435/british-spies. Camille is as confused as us to learn that the revolutionaries are taking money from the British monarchy. And it is the first indication that they can be bought and see to be bought. A matter that will be used against them later on.
Danton stays at home because Danton is looking after Danton. You may remember that he used the same excuse of an important Shipping case during the July riots. He stays away from these unpredictable events to see how they play out. He is an opportunist who takes advantage of the chaos to rise to the top.
Unlike Robespierre, who is a pure man of virtue. Which answers one of your other questions: no, I don't think Danton and Robespierre are friends. Their motivations are so very different, and all they have in common is Camille and a shared belief that the revolution must go further and deeper.
As for why Camille finds Brissot so funny, I would love to see what other people think. Brissot is an optimist, he likes to say the past was dreadful and things can only get better. Camille is a doomster who thinks and hopes that everything is still going to get much much worse. Perhaps Brissot's sunny disposition just cracks him up, as it seems so far from what Camille thinks is the reality.
Thank you for these insights, and for the Greater State of Befuddlement - happy to reside there!
I did chuckle when Danton was asked if he was missing the riot because of the same case from back in July, and he replied that it was the appeal. Convenient indeed!
I too am interested in others’ takes on Camille’s laughter. You could be right, it’s a clash of dispositions. And Camille does seem prone to delirious glee (among other things).
I’m glad to join the conversation here at last after needing to catch up during the first few weeks. Once again, as was true last year with War and Peace and the Cromwell trilogy, Simon’s background info and links make everything so much more fun and understandable. This week, I especially loved reading Mantel’s review of Lawday’s biography of Danton, which she chides for being far too fluffy in its portrayal of this fascinatingly complex man. Thank you for that link, Simon!
Great! That was a last minute addition to this post. Glad you enjoyed it!
Btw, Mantel saw Lawday’s version of Danton as a reflection of the one portrayed by Gérard Depardieu in the 1983 film, which was mentioned in an earlier conversation. I had watched the first hour of that film and then turned it off, as I found Depardieu’s Danton uncomfortably simplistic. I agree with Mantel: Danton’s a far more intriguing and complicated character than that!
I really enjoy Mantel's characterisation of Danton. And I see some throughlines from Danton to Cromwell in many ways...
Absolutely!
Ça ira, ça ira: immediate flashbacks to the Paris Olympics opening ceremony and the headless lady at the Conciergerie. And that in turn reminded me of the excellent Comte de Saint-Germain series of substack posts in which the opening ceremony was explained in detail (this is just one part out of six): https://open.substack.com/pub/walkparis/p/the-whole-ceremony-was-very-you-part?r=4w0sx&utm_medium=ios
Ha. Fabulous!
#alsobefuddled 🥰 Thanks for un-befuddling this for me, Simon! 😅
(1) I am curious to what extent Mantel's description of the day-to-day details is informed/inspired by sources (letters, journals, etc.) and how much is pure imagination. For example, the bit about Camille taking hours-long lunches and returning drunk so he didn't ever apologize, would that type of thing been known about him or just invented but consistent with her impression of the character? (I'm still calibrating myself to genre of historical fiction...)
(2) I'm also curious if anyone has read "The Marquis: Lafayette Reconsidered," by Laura Auricchio? It has been buried on my future reads list for a while, and this may be an excuse to start bumping it up.
Mostly informed and inspired from sources. Mantel's unusual among historical novelists in the extent of her research. I recommend re-reading her authors note at the beginning of the novel where she talks about how to tell the difference between fact and fiction in her books. She did set the bar punishingly high.
I'll order up Treacle Walker then!
"I heal all things; save jealousy. Which none can."
“Writing’s like running downhill; can’t stop if you want to.” - now I have an image of Camille, the loose cannon, hurtling downhill at that cheese-rolling contest.
I’m behind on my re-reading of this section, so I may be back later.
Just a heads up that the V&A in London have just released tickets for their Marie Antoinette exhibition in the Autumn. They seem to be going fast.....https://www.vam.ac.uk/exhibitions/marie-antoinette
Thanks Kate!
Apart from the appalling savagery (and they haven’t really got going yet!) and that lovely Mantelian aside “There’s nothing in this breathing world so gratifying as an artfully placed semicolon “, what most struck me this time was the revelation that the British were financing a great deal of the mayhem. Plus ça change, etc: great powers thinking they can control events…. If it’s true. Does anyone know what evidence there is of this? I’m not saying I don’t believe it—it’s all too likely—I’d just like to know the facts, such as they may be. Grace Elliot may be one’s guide here?
Yes, I started digging last week but didn't find anything categorical. I get the impression that the British were primarily interested in getting the National Assembly to dissolve the alliance between Spain and France. Revolutionaries did accuse each other of being in the pay of foreign powers, but I don't know how much truth there was in it.
Not sure if we've touched on this already and I've missed it, but what's going on with Mirabeau and his "slaves"? I took that to be his playful and derogatory way of referring to his various hangers-on, but I'm not sure I'm right about that. And are they all Swiss? What's the deal?!
Yes, you're right, I haven't covered this at all yet. In 1782, there was a short-lived revolution in Geneva aimed at widening the franchise and breaking the oligarchies that ruled the city. The revolution was crushed with the help of the French, and the revolutionaries went into exile. Many gravitated towards Mirabeau, at that point one of the most recognizable revolutionary figureheads. It looks like he enjoyed the attention, but he's far more interested in his own greatness than the success of any cause.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geneva_Revolution_of_1782
Ah ok that explains it, thank you!
Thanks for asking Marianne, I'd wondered that in passing and not stopped to ask!