So many Henry jump scare here: '"I ask myself, what did /you/ know?" The king's eyes rest on him. "You do not seem amazed as I was amazed." It's the first overt distrust (that I remember) in the books and a dark note.
The scene with the council, too. One gets the distinct impression of being caught in a cage with the god/beast. I'm so happy nobody's offered me the position of advisor to a king, lol!
There's a piece Mantel wrote somewhere about how historians underestimate the role of chronic pain in the decisions of historical characters. She shows this very clearly in the council meeting: Henry is in a lot of pain and it has given him a murderous temper. It is terrifying.
She writes him with a great deal of empathy--this is how it feels to age, to go from athletic prowess to constant pain, this is how you create a tyrant.
So much to enjoy here: thank you, as usual, Simon. Maybe my favourite bit is from the 2016 LRB review by Hilary (to which you link) of Susan Higginbotham’s biography of Margaret Pole: her review is a rollicking account of the horrors of the high life in the Tudor court, as we would expect, we who are now steeped in the even more rollicking account of her Wolf Hall trilogy. But in amongst all that there is an acerbic description of the unfortunate Higginbotham’s style as a historical novelist (which she also is): “[Higginbotham’s] fiction is stiff and chary, as if she is too constrained by her knowledge of the pitfalls to turn her characters loose in their own lives. Seldom distracted from voicing their headline concerns, her people give each other a lot of information, in unmodulated voices, each time they speak.” This is exactly what Hilary does not do: she precisely *does* turn her characters loose in their own lives. What a typical, wonderful turn of phrase!
The fathers and the sons: The more I hear of Gregory, the more I like him.
While reading the paragraph where Cromwell thinks of fathers and sons, I had to think of Wolsey and Cromwell and their relationship at the end. How Wolsey so longed to see Cromwell during his last days and Cavendish had to lie to Wolsey, telling him that Cromwell will come and is just delayed. And before that, Cromwell stopped writing directly to Wolsey and communicated indirectly via his clerks to him. I know Cromwell tried to stay alive and did a lot for Wolsey, but...one last encounter would have meant so much for Wolsey on a personal level. I think he failed Wolsey there. That he is taking down everyone who was a enemy of Wolsey, is one motive and may sound better for him, but if he is honest, he is (foremost) taking out his enemies. So, end of my rant 😂
Don't really want to say much here as you are anticipating the plot with your observations! But yes, I think there's a sense that Cromwell failed Wolsey and striking out all his enemies won't absolven him of that.
Ah, I should just trust Hilary 😂 The Wolsey story was a bit too much much, 'sugary' for me in the last time, but from what you write, I assume Mantel will not let it be forgotten how it was.
All the interactions with Henry are fascinating. There is always this impression we get of him as being a bit fragile, needing reassurance, being egotistical and quick to anger. Not very intelligent perhaps. But I cannot help but think he is actually very intelligent to recognise the value of Cromwell as an adviser and to give him power. It must've been so difficult, among a crowd of fawning, self-interested noblemen and ancient families, to know who to trust, who to listen to. That he landed on Cromwell, a butcher's son, shows uncommon instincts, I think. (Though I realise Henry will err soon enough.)
Did it twice, I suppose: Wolsey is the butcher's on, Cromwell is the blacksmith's son. Both recognised that Henry wanted to get stuff done but wasn't interested in the detail or hard work. They were 'yes' men who told Henry he could do what he liked and then made it possible... until what didn't!
And Mantel's portrayal of the relationship between Henry and Cromwell is masterful. So much is at stake in every interaction and we get to watch Cromwell figure it out, problem solve, recognise when to step back, when to nudge or persuade, when and how to reassure. Cromwell often gives the impression of being very 'light touch' with Henry. He voices less than half of what he thinks. But always there is a swinging power dynamic between them. Henry has all the power, and then is vulnerable and needs Crumb, and then is powerful again, and then needs something done that only Cromwell can do. 'Lord Cromwell,' says Henry at the end of the Council Board meeting, 'as you love me and love my service, you will bring this matter to a conclusion. We shall not come here to debate it again.' Cripes. All the most difficult, intractable problems arrive at Cromwell's door. (I sometimes wonder whether H would've had so many wives if it weren't for Cromwell - would anyone else have been able to beat the system like C does?) But Cromwell wants Henry to come to him. He wants to have the power inherent in being the king's fixer. He wants to have his fingers in every pie.
Yes, the last thing he wants is Henry to find someone else to solve his problems: Stephen Gardiner especially. It's a huge gamble: take on these intractable problems and solve them... or else!
I had to reread a couple times to make sure I was really understanding that Cromwell was taking Cranmer’s houses - my internal picture of Cromwell still skews toward him not being so petty, so mercenary. Seems I will have to adjust 😂
And as he spoke with Wyatt, his thought “or am I just on the brink” - 😮💨 yes, sir, you sure are.
I think it felt petty to me as he and Cranmer have been allies. I would have said friends, but this feels unfriendly. I have tended up til now to view Cromwell in a very rose colored glasses sort of way, as I just love him 😍, but now I have to consider things a little more objectively haha
I wasn't sure if he was taking those houses for himself, or for Henry. He has made Henry a richer man by snapping up the property of courtiers on the outs, hasn't he?
I think Crumb's ambition is more evident in Mirror than anywhere else. There is one scene to come, much later, where we really see it. I remember being surprised when I first read it. I think also that he becomes less conscious of keeping himself safe as the story moves on. I hesitate to use the word arrogant right now but it will definitely fit later on.
'Some of us are trying to save you from yourself, Majesty' Fitzwilliam is quite brave here in speaking his mind honestly. I do get the feeling, that Cromwell underestimates Henry now and then. Cromwell's attack on Fitzwilliam, Henry does not buy it and calls him out. And is it the first time Henry openly threatens Cromwell? ('If you love me and my service, you will bring this matter to a close.' I think this is a threat)
Henry the gas-lighter: make it happen or you must be a traitor. Fitzwilliam voicing the exasperation everyone is feeling is one of my favourite scenes. Henry is just doing his usual complaining about a situation he created and waiting for someone else to sort it out, at which point he'll shake his head in mock astonishment that things turned out the way the did. And begin again. I mean, is he actually asking Crumb to arrange Mary's murder? And if that happened, by assassination or attainder, what would Henry do except look mournful and ask for absolution. Now its me who's ranting 😂
Cromwell invokes a Bill of Attainder o Margaret Pole as a way to handle someone suspected of treason without the need for a trial or evidence. Bills of Attainder are prohibited by the U.S. Constitution.
It made me question, however, whether there was a difference between a trial where the verdict is a foregone conclusion and an Attainder. Both in Henry VIII's time and in our own.
It's a fascinating topic. I am currently reading about the English Civil War, where Parliament brought in Bills of Attainder as a mean of charging the king's ministers with treason without having to go through a proper trial. This was much more common in the medieval and Tudor period...it seems to have become much more controversial from the seventeenth century onwards.
We certainly live in a time where there is a movement towards 'guilty until proved innocent', where people's lives can be destroyed by accusation or public disapproval, even in the absence of a crime. We're only marginally more civilised in that we don't publicly burn people anymore.
Oops, I've fallen behind again after getting distracted by Thomas More. On that subject, I noticed that Cromwell’s still busy justifying More's death to himself (remembering Little Bilney: "whenever you think about it, you can hear Thomas More, chuckling").
Cromwell’s memory of Henry breaking Wolsey's heart felt like the closest he's come to acknowledging that Gardiner had a point with his question about revenge... a dangerous train of thought.
I was intrigued by the passage where Wriothesley 'remembers' seeing Cromwell using torture, and Rafe gently corrects him. Somebody's memory is playing tricks on them, but whose?
The big reveal about Pole's book and Cromwell’s successful manoeuvring ("No wonder you dealt so boldly these last weeks") felt like a brief return to the good old days of the first book when we could marvel at Cromwell’s cleverness as we watched his rise - & from his cocky manner with the Poles it seems he felt that way too!
Cromwell’s fake fight with Fitz reminded me of last week's quote about the councillors carrying Henry’s sins - Cromwell is worse (grabbing and shoving) so that Henry can be better, gently deciding that Fitzwilliam "is not greatly to be blamed".
Finally, I am enjoying the observations on how past, present and future interact: Cromwell’s "I don't have a history, only a past" & Margaret Pole's "It is a crime to envisage the future. We are trapped in the hour we occupy."
Crumb is haunted by Little Bilney and the others he couldn't save. It gets worse. And yes, Cromwell has an ace up his sleeve with Pole's book: just enough to keep him alive through the Mary debacle. Oh yes, and Gardiner's question has buried deep into him.
Thank you so much for another brilliant update with so much extra reading material. There’s my weekend covered 🙏🏼. Great pic during HM weekend. I’ve got both of DM’s books as a result of #wolfcrawl and intend to read them next year as well as any others on the Tudors. Such a fascinating era.
So many Henry jump scare here: '"I ask myself, what did /you/ know?" The king's eyes rest on him. "You do not seem amazed as I was amazed." It's the first overt distrust (that I remember) in the books and a dark note.
The scene with the council, too. One gets the distinct impression of being caught in a cage with the god/beast. I'm so happy nobody's offered me the position of advisor to a king, lol!
There's a piece Mantel wrote somewhere about how historians underestimate the role of chronic pain in the decisions of historical characters. She shows this very clearly in the council meeting: Henry is in a lot of pain and it has given him a murderous temper. It is terrifying.
She writes him with a great deal of empathy--this is how it feels to age, to go from athletic prowess to constant pain, this is how you create a tyrant.
So much to enjoy here: thank you, as usual, Simon. Maybe my favourite bit is from the 2016 LRB review by Hilary (to which you link) of Susan Higginbotham’s biography of Margaret Pole: her review is a rollicking account of the horrors of the high life in the Tudor court, as we would expect, we who are now steeped in the even more rollicking account of her Wolf Hall trilogy. But in amongst all that there is an acerbic description of the unfortunate Higginbotham’s style as a historical novelist (which she also is): “[Higginbotham’s] fiction is stiff and chary, as if she is too constrained by her knowledge of the pitfalls to turn her characters loose in their own lives. Seldom distracted from voicing their headline concerns, her people give each other a lot of information, in unmodulated voices, each time they speak.” This is exactly what Hilary does not do: she precisely *does* turn her characters loose in their own lives. What a typical, wonderful turn of phrase!
What a great phrase! Yes, let the characters live. Let them loose in their own lives.
The fathers and the sons: The more I hear of Gregory, the more I like him.
While reading the paragraph where Cromwell thinks of fathers and sons, I had to think of Wolsey and Cromwell and their relationship at the end. How Wolsey so longed to see Cromwell during his last days and Cavendish had to lie to Wolsey, telling him that Cromwell will come and is just delayed. And before that, Cromwell stopped writing directly to Wolsey and communicated indirectly via his clerks to him. I know Cromwell tried to stay alive and did a lot for Wolsey, but...one last encounter would have meant so much for Wolsey on a personal level. I think he failed Wolsey there. That he is taking down everyone who was a enemy of Wolsey, is one motive and may sound better for him, but if he is honest, he is (foremost) taking out his enemies. So, end of my rant 😂
Don't really want to say much here as you are anticipating the plot with your observations! But yes, I think there's a sense that Cromwell failed Wolsey and striking out all his enemies won't absolven him of that.
Ah, I should just trust Hilary 😂 The Wolsey story was a bit too much much, 'sugary' for me in the last time, but from what you write, I assume Mantel will not let it be forgotten how it was.
By last time do you mean BUTB?
Yes, not exactly the last two chapters of M&L, but thinking of this a bit for some time now.
Do you have a page ref for Wolsey longing to see Cromwell? Must be in Entirely Beloved Cromwell.
Page 262, Entirely Beloved Cromwell
All the interactions with Henry are fascinating. There is always this impression we get of him as being a bit fragile, needing reassurance, being egotistical and quick to anger. Not very intelligent perhaps. But I cannot help but think he is actually very intelligent to recognise the value of Cromwell as an adviser and to give him power. It must've been so difficult, among a crowd of fawning, self-interested noblemen and ancient families, to know who to trust, who to listen to. That he landed on Cromwell, a butcher's son, shows uncommon instincts, I think. (Though I realise Henry will err soon enough.)
Did it twice, I suppose: Wolsey is the butcher's on, Cromwell is the blacksmith's son. Both recognised that Henry wanted to get stuff done but wasn't interested in the detail or hard work. They were 'yes' men who told Henry he could do what he liked and then made it possible... until what didn't!
Oh yes, good point!
And sorry, I see I got my lines crossed. Of course I meant blacksmith in relation to Cromwell.
And Mantel's portrayal of the relationship between Henry and Cromwell is masterful. So much is at stake in every interaction and we get to watch Cromwell figure it out, problem solve, recognise when to step back, when to nudge or persuade, when and how to reassure. Cromwell often gives the impression of being very 'light touch' with Henry. He voices less than half of what he thinks. But always there is a swinging power dynamic between them. Henry has all the power, and then is vulnerable and needs Crumb, and then is powerful again, and then needs something done that only Cromwell can do. 'Lord Cromwell,' says Henry at the end of the Council Board meeting, 'as you love me and love my service, you will bring this matter to a conclusion. We shall not come here to debate it again.' Cripes. All the most difficult, intractable problems arrive at Cromwell's door. (I sometimes wonder whether H would've had so many wives if it weren't for Cromwell - would anyone else have been able to beat the system like C does?) But Cromwell wants Henry to come to him. He wants to have the power inherent in being the king's fixer. He wants to have his fingers in every pie.
Yes, the last thing he wants is Henry to find someone else to solve his problems: Stephen Gardiner especially. It's a huge gamble: take on these intractable problems and solve them... or else!
Exactly!
I had to reread a couple times to make sure I was really understanding that Cromwell was taking Cranmer’s houses - my internal picture of Cromwell still skews toward him not being so petty, so mercenary. Seems I will have to adjust 😂
And as he spoke with Wyatt, his thought “or am I just on the brink” - 😮💨 yes, sir, you sure are.
I don't know whether petty is the right word... but certainly acquisitive: he has the hunger for things that comes from starting with nothing.
I think it felt petty to me as he and Cranmer have been allies. I would have said friends, but this feels unfriendly. I have tended up til now to view Cromwell in a very rose colored glasses sort of way, as I just love him 😍, but now I have to consider things a little more objectively haha
I wasn't sure if he was taking those houses for himself, or for Henry. He has made Henry a richer man by snapping up the property of courtiers on the outs, hasn't he?
These are very much for himself!
I think Crumb's ambition is more evident in Mirror than anywhere else. There is one scene to come, much later, where we really see it. I remember being surprised when I first read it. I think also that he becomes less conscious of keeping himself safe as the story moves on. I hesitate to use the word arrogant right now but it will definitely fit later on.
'Some of us are trying to save you from yourself, Majesty' Fitzwilliam is quite brave here in speaking his mind honestly. I do get the feeling, that Cromwell underestimates Henry now and then. Cromwell's attack on Fitzwilliam, Henry does not buy it and calls him out. And is it the first time Henry openly threatens Cromwell? ('If you love me and my service, you will bring this matter to a close.' I think this is a threat)
It is definitely a warning, which Cromwell feels on the back of his neck.
Henry the gas-lighter: make it happen or you must be a traitor. Fitzwilliam voicing the exasperation everyone is feeling is one of my favourite scenes. Henry is just doing his usual complaining about a situation he created and waiting for someone else to sort it out, at which point he'll shake his head in mock astonishment that things turned out the way the did. And begin again. I mean, is he actually asking Crumb to arrange Mary's murder? And if that happened, by assassination or attainder, what would Henry do except look mournful and ask for absolution. Now its me who's ranting 😂
Cromwell invokes a Bill of Attainder o Margaret Pole as a way to handle someone suspected of treason without the need for a trial or evidence. Bills of Attainder are prohibited by the U.S. Constitution.
It made me question, however, whether there was a difference between a trial where the verdict is a foregone conclusion and an Attainder. Both in Henry VIII's time and in our own.
It's a fascinating topic. I am currently reading about the English Civil War, where Parliament brought in Bills of Attainder as a mean of charging the king's ministers with treason without having to go through a proper trial. This was much more common in the medieval and Tudor period...it seems to have become much more controversial from the seventeenth century onwards.
We certainly live in a time where there is a movement towards 'guilty until proved innocent', where people's lives can be destroyed by accusation or public disapproval, even in the absence of a crime. We're only marginally more civilised in that we don't publicly burn people anymore.
Oops, I've fallen behind again after getting distracted by Thomas More. On that subject, I noticed that Cromwell’s still busy justifying More's death to himself (remembering Little Bilney: "whenever you think about it, you can hear Thomas More, chuckling").
Cromwell’s memory of Henry breaking Wolsey's heart felt like the closest he's come to acknowledging that Gardiner had a point with his question about revenge... a dangerous train of thought.
I was intrigued by the passage where Wriothesley 'remembers' seeing Cromwell using torture, and Rafe gently corrects him. Somebody's memory is playing tricks on them, but whose?
The big reveal about Pole's book and Cromwell’s successful manoeuvring ("No wonder you dealt so boldly these last weeks") felt like a brief return to the good old days of the first book when we could marvel at Cromwell’s cleverness as we watched his rise - & from his cocky manner with the Poles it seems he felt that way too!
Cromwell’s fake fight with Fitz reminded me of last week's quote about the councillors carrying Henry’s sins - Cromwell is worse (grabbing and shoving) so that Henry can be better, gently deciding that Fitzwilliam "is not greatly to be blamed".
Finally, I am enjoying the observations on how past, present and future interact: Cromwell’s "I don't have a history, only a past" & Margaret Pole's "It is a crime to envisage the future. We are trapped in the hour we occupy."
Crumb is haunted by Little Bilney and the others he couldn't save. It gets worse. And yes, Cromwell has an ace up his sleeve with Pole's book: just enough to keep him alive through the Mary debacle. Oh yes, and Gardiner's question has buried deep into him.
Thank you so much for another brilliant update with so much extra reading material. There’s my weekend covered 🙏🏼. Great pic during HM weekend. I’ve got both of DM’s books as a result of #wolfcrawl and intend to read them next year as well as any others on the Tudors. Such a fascinating era.
👍 DM said he was writing a new book on the history of sex and the church. 👀 Less Tudory, more sex.
Natural progression lol