The Flood did a lot of historical heavy lifting back in the day.
"What happened to the giants?"
"Flood."
"Unicorns?"
"Flood."
Might I recommend this extremely entertaining lecture by British Museum Wizard Irving Finkel (Cuneiform Curator), about how he tried to recreate the Ark in real life based on instructions from a Babylonian clay tablet (which looks something like a Weetbix).
I like the fact the giants were tall, but not so tall that they their heads rose above the water. I feel like people have been debating how and why certain mythical/real creatures survived or didn't survive the Flood. Thanks for the link! Brilliant.
One of my favorite Wolf Hall quotes is in this section: "...to this very day, nothing in this kingdom counts so much as how your forefathers behaved on the field at Bosworth."
That fascinates and amuses me because in America, it doesn't matter who your ancestors were or what they did. No one cares how my grandfather behaved in WWII and it has no bearing on how I'm perceived. But to live in a culture where you're closely associated with what your family has done is something that I kinda wish was a thing for Americans. But I guess my culture is too entrenched in being independent and self-made :)
Might a better comparison be if your parents had fought in the American Civil War? Bosworth marks the end of the Wars of the Roses, a generation of civil war. Whether your parents were confederates might matter a lot in the decades after?
That said, I take your point about a society where people feel self-made, less held back by their family name. English feudal society was very rigid and 'mushroom men' were regarded as upsetting the natural order of things. What we are seeing in the 1530s is the breaking down of feudal society, with people like Cromwell rising up. Society becomes more fluid, although capitalism will create a new set of social classes.
I identify as British, but my mother was American, and through her I qualify to join the Daughters of the American Revolution and the Mayflower Society (I haven’t and won’t be). I would say that, in certain places and amongst certain classes in the USA, it is the foundation myth and the revolution, not the civil war, which (to an admittedly limited extent) still define status. I too was struck by that remark about the importance of where your ancestors stood on Bosworth Field, and I understood it in the light of such events as the War of Independence.
I suspect that civil wars are rarely used in quite this way—that for example the American Civil War is still too raw to be treated the way you suggest, Simon. I have always been struck about how rarely if ever English school-children are taught about our civil war, even now, nearly 400 years later. Was Bosworth Field part of a civil war, or a massive aristocratic squabble?
It's true, the Wars of the Roses was more a dynastic struggle than a civil war. The English Civil War was far more fractious, splitting families up and down the country. And in Tudor England, who fought on which side at Bosworth only really mattered to one family: the Tudors. They just happened to also be the royal family.
Yeah, the Civil War is probably a better choice. But people might have been somewhat less fractious in the decades that followed because so much expansion was happening. People could leave for the Oregon Trail and start over far from where the battles were. And there’s the ongoing Industrial Revolution, and transcontinental railroad. There were places to go and maybe hide if you felt the need. Englishmen in Tudor times couldn’t easily go very far, so maybe the consequences of a family’s actions were a little more unavoidable. Just a thought :)
I was also agape when Henry uses the nickname Call-me! That was a funny moment. I also liked the passage when Riche says the wrong thing about where a king derives his powers and the others try to minimize the damage.
Simon, I like how Mantel handles the close third person of Crumb in the context of the rebellion. We're as uncertain as he is.
This made me think of all our private nicknames among family and friends, and that terrifying thought that one day we're going to slip in a public space and call our significant other My Little Love Noodle. But this is with the King! I imagine Call-Me cringing in his doublet.
"Gregory says encouragingly, 'They will hate you once they know you, Call-Me." Always with the backhanded compliments! Gregory is such a consistent and consistently amusing character. I imagine Mantel setting him in scenes to amuse herself as times grow dark in the book.
The Flood did a lot of historical heavy lifting back in the day.
"What happened to the giants?"
"Flood."
"Unicorns?"
"Flood."
Might I recommend this extremely entertaining lecture by British Museum Wizard Irving Finkel (Cuneiform Curator), about how he tried to recreate the Ark in real life based on instructions from a Babylonian clay tablet (which looks something like a Weetbix).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s_fkpZSnz2I
I like the fact the giants were tall, but not so tall that they their heads rose above the water. I feel like people have been debating how and why certain mythical/real creatures survived or didn't survive the Flood. Thanks for the link! Brilliant.
One of my favorite Wolf Hall quotes is in this section: "...to this very day, nothing in this kingdom counts so much as how your forefathers behaved on the field at Bosworth."
That fascinates and amuses me because in America, it doesn't matter who your ancestors were or what they did. No one cares how my grandfather behaved in WWII and it has no bearing on how I'm perceived. But to live in a culture where you're closely associated with what your family has done is something that I kinda wish was a thing for Americans. But I guess my culture is too entrenched in being independent and self-made :)
Might a better comparison be if your parents had fought in the American Civil War? Bosworth marks the end of the Wars of the Roses, a generation of civil war. Whether your parents were confederates might matter a lot in the decades after?
That said, I take your point about a society where people feel self-made, less held back by their family name. English feudal society was very rigid and 'mushroom men' were regarded as upsetting the natural order of things. What we are seeing in the 1530s is the breaking down of feudal society, with people like Cromwell rising up. Society becomes more fluid, although capitalism will create a new set of social classes.
I identify as British, but my mother was American, and through her I qualify to join the Daughters of the American Revolution and the Mayflower Society (I haven’t and won’t be). I would say that, in certain places and amongst certain classes in the USA, it is the foundation myth and the revolution, not the civil war, which (to an admittedly limited extent) still define status. I too was struck by that remark about the importance of where your ancestors stood on Bosworth Field, and I understood it in the light of such events as the War of Independence.
I suspect that civil wars are rarely used in quite this way—that for example the American Civil War is still too raw to be treated the way you suggest, Simon. I have always been struck about how rarely if ever English school-children are taught about our civil war, even now, nearly 400 years later. Was Bosworth Field part of a civil war, or a massive aristocratic squabble?
It's true, the Wars of the Roses was more a dynastic struggle than a civil war. The English Civil War was far more fractious, splitting families up and down the country. And in Tudor England, who fought on which side at Bosworth only really mattered to one family: the Tudors. They just happened to also be the royal family.
Yeah, the Civil War is probably a better choice. But people might have been somewhat less fractious in the decades that followed because so much expansion was happening. People could leave for the Oregon Trail and start over far from where the battles were. And there’s the ongoing Industrial Revolution, and transcontinental railroad. There were places to go and maybe hide if you felt the need. Englishmen in Tudor times couldn’t easily go very far, so maybe the consequences of a family’s actions were a little more unavoidable. Just a thought :)
True. Within a couple of generations, people would have somewhere to go: the New World.
I noted that quote as well. It's consistent with the idea that one's blood, i.e., ones' ancestors determines behavior. But that's for nobles only.
In modern America, it's wealth that gets handed down for a few generations.
I was also agape when Henry uses the nickname Call-me! That was a funny moment. I also liked the passage when Riche says the wrong thing about where a king derives his powers and the others try to minimize the damage.
Simon, I like how Mantel handles the close third person of Crumb in the context of the rebellion. We're as uncertain as he is.
This made me think of all our private nicknames among family and friends, and that terrifying thought that one day we're going to slip in a public space and call our significant other My Little Love Noodle. But this is with the King! I imagine Call-Me cringing in his doublet.
"Gregory says encouragingly, 'They will hate you once they know you, Call-Me." Always with the backhanded compliments! Gregory is such a consistent and consistently amusing character. I imagine Mantel setting him in scenes to amuse herself as times grow dark in the book.