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I read this book when it came out and I forgot the details. The prose is as magical as in Wolf Hall but maybe more “encrusted in jewels”, weighty while witty, like the characters themselves in the opening sequence? It is just so smooth and subtle - the King’s falling in love with actually, the love of his life, is like a passing of a ghost in the background. Now you see it, now you are not sure, unless you are Thomas Cromwell. The dialogues are the best ever. Just magical, Mantel.
Falcons again - there is an episode in “All creatures great and small” where James Herriot fixes the wing of a wounded falcon with a “prosthetic” little stick. And the falcon who happens to be the mascot of the air brigade he serving in during WWII, flies again, to the relief of the officer who owns the magical bird. When Herriot goes AWOL for the birth of his son, he is quietly taken back by his superior and pardoned.
So happy to be back for my second slow read of Bring up the Bodies (third read in total) I didn't manage this slow read of Wolf Hall but I think Bring up the Bodies is my favourite of the two, here i feel we are given more insight into Cromwell's thoughts and feelings and tiny details make it all the more absorbing. Once again Simon your notes add that extra layer and I am loving @beastitches write up as well.
I love that TC named his falcons/hawks after his daughters. I first developed a fondness for hawks when I read H is for Hawk. And I have had, for the past several years, a bonded pair of Coopers Hawks in the very large tree next door. Last summer I delighted in watching their two fledglings practice flying in my yard.
Can someone clarify the part where Rafe and Gregory are playing with Weston’s ghost… he is still alive no? I’m a bit confused as to the meaning and metaphor of this section. Thanks 🙏
Weston is very much still alive. Rafe and Gregory are letting off steam by imagining doing away with him – Gregory is still riled up by Weston’s comments at dinner. Catching Weston in a net is a bit of foreshadowing if you know his fate, and we often find Cromwell's boys acting out or vocalising part of Cromwell's psyche that he must keep hidden: ie. his desire to murder Weston.
I'll just add my own bit of falcon serendipity. I just moved to a complex on the Pacific Ocean, which is lovely, but has seagulls like mad. One of the things they are doing to keep the problem within bounds is hire a falconer. He and his crew (and the falcon!) come three days a week and wander the property; periodically they let the falcon roam to let the seagulls know there's a Predator on the Premises. I'm not sure how effective this will ultimately be, but the falcon is lovely, and I'm glad to have him on my side.
So glad you mentioned the tail of his/her eye. It really jumped out at me as an unusual usage. I read this chapter shortly after watching the latest David Attenborough Secret Garden, with the hawks in Scotland at risk of starvation, fighting over a hunk of venison. It definitely brought home the savagery of these magnificent birds. Hard to imagine little Grace in that context but I did like the idea of her and her sister soaring free. And what a stunning opening sentence to this book.
Just starting this week. Hawks are circling all over in upstate NY. And this episode just came up in times for the first installment. I think the universe is conspiring to make the most of Wolf Crawl. Falcons it is! I remember being on the subway in Moscow decades ago and there was a guy with a glove and a hawk in his hood. He just slept there on his way to some fun. The falconer was taking him to practice in one of the woodsy areas where the equestrian complex was located. But the adrenaline you feel when approaching a falcon is through the roof. The falconer was friendly and answered questions from random subway commuters. The bird was placid and didn’t mind.
Yes exactly - the biologist talks about the raptors they use and breed for traditional falconry but it’s not what we generally see in the wild and not all birds we see in rehab sanctuaries. Not I am not a biologist, and I have a feeling the literary sources do not always make a distinction of hawks and falcons but that doesn’t diminish our fascination. It is clear that there are many types of birds of prey and only a certain type is used in hunting by humans.
What a story! I’m in central Oxford and have red kites over my garden. They’re carrion feeders not hunters but still spectacular in flight and with such an eerie cry.
No not yet - but the future Mrs Shakespeare in Hamnet was quite good with hawks. She had a female kestrel that she trained. I wonder if it’s in the film
It is in the film and people have been saying that if you’re going to see a film about a woman with a hawk this year, H is for Hawk is the better choice!
I'm seeing things differently (again!). Knowing that this novel covers only a few months, really changes everything - and I didn't really puck up on that first time round. So many people really don't know how close to their doom they are.
And I'm not sure that, last time round, I picked up on Henry's mood after his walk with Jane. It feels a bit like a workplace romance that I observed (as did everybody in the place), where (at least) one of the participants wasn't aware that it was going to happen. Everybody else could see it, but not the man. Henry does feel surprised by what's happened.
My tangent is the articles in the news about portraits of Anne Boleyn. The famous one isn't contemporary. The drawing is now suggested to be her mother (with the title added later), with a different portrait put forward as Anne. It's all very interesting, I suppose, but I'm not sure it tells us anything about Anne. We all probably come up with our own versions of Anne. (A bit like Cleopatra.)
Yes, it's worth repeating that point about how Hilary Mantel assumed she was writing book 2 of 2 and then realised that this short period demanded its own book. This time compression gives it a thriller intensity. And we can also think of it as the hinge of the trilogy: to anticipates Cromwell's thoughts at the beginning of The Mirror and the Light: “we will not escape these weeks”.
Simon, a pre-comment. I always read your summary of the week's story before I start the chapter, and had a question: You mention they are traveling through "the home counties." I saw the map, so I kind of know that part of the context, but I didn't understand how home counties would differ from . . . . other counties? Non-home counties? Is there something we Americans would need to know about what that means?
The home counties is (are?) basically the counties that are right next to London. There's not really a strict definition, so basically all you need to know is that they are (relatively) close to London.
You can find various versions of why they are called that. Personally, I wouldn't believe any of them!
Great question, David. Yes, the home counties are southern and southeast England – the most densely populated regions of the country outside London, then and now. This was “home” for many working in London or studying in Cambridge and Oxford. This is the flat green pleasant land that perhaps you might think of when you think of England, compared to the more wild West Country (Cornwall etc) and North (Yorkshire, Northumberland etc.
I am behind on my reading but enjoying the catch -up. Yes, Mantel’s style has changed, maybe it’s the climb before the climax that is the combination of all three novels (I speculate as this is my first time reading the books). The climb feels hurried, the type of quickness that feels disconcerting. I really like the end of the chapter when Mantel describes the past, the present, and even the future, like a painter creating one beautiful final stroke: “Jane is facing front, like a sentry. The clouds have blown away overnight. We may have one more fine day. The early sun touches the fields, rosy. Night vapors disperse. The forms of trees swim into particularity. The house is waking up“. That last brief sentence as symbolism for the Seymour house rising soon in power.
I was really struck picking up Bring Up the Bodies so soon after Wolf Hall by how hardened Cromwell is when we meet him here. My memories from the first time I read both novels is that Cromwell was the witty underdog throughout and I’d forgotten how much he develops in that first novel, and how calculating he is by the time we meet him in this second book. He’s not unlikeable exactly but I can already see that he’s a world away from the man we first meet waiting to report to Wolsey at the beginning of Wolf Hall. There’s not a page of this section goes by when he isn’t calculating or performing, trying to stay one step ahead of the game and ensure he’s the hunter and not the hunted. And I can already see Mantel foreshadowing to us, the readers, that eventually Cromwell is going to lose the game he’s playing.
I noticed how he was changing at the end of WH, but here, in the opening of the second book, he's become more set, more comfortable, even, is his ability to rule Henry and England. Even when he's temporarily unable to see what's going on (Jane and Henry), Cromwell is very quick to recover his balance. What a fascinating change in Cromwell's character. I never noticed it when I read the trilogy before.
I haven't commented in the last few weeks, but this one reiterates the point that unsettles me the most: how TC writes the laws and hunts people with them, all the while pointing out that if only they followed the law, they'd be fine. Must be my Russianness that hates these people with my guts. It makes an interesting reading experience, since in many other aspects I find TC admirable, while More or Weston not so much, but here I side with the latter two. "He needs new phrases...", my a...hem. Bad karma, that's all I'm saying.
It gets to the point about the complexity of Cromwell: how odd it is when readers & critics say Mantel made Cromwell too sympathetic (really?) or that she needed to do some serious work to make him less likeable in the latter stages of the story (really!?). Cromwell the bully, the overconfident Cromwell, is there from page one.
Then again, I hate the concept of Karma in fiction. It is such a sludgy, crass concept. And so false: truly awful acts frequently go unpunished.
Yeah, he definitely contains multitudes from the start, but this side of him keeps growing, since, so far, it's beneficial to the lord he serves. He is undeniably talented.
Well, karma is never about justice in this life. Bad karma is about lessening you chances of exiting the cycle of rebirth and with it, suffering. Our man is increasing his chances to be reborn as a bedbug, I'm afraid :/
I do wonder where it says in the bible that you are allowed to bend rules to force people take your side or else.
One way of seeing the trilogy is as a tragedy, a fatal flaw writing itself out. Mantel was clearly heavily influenced by Shakespeare. What she then does is make us feel like we are him, so we must fully experience the hubris as though it is our own. Cromwell may be reborn as a bedbug, but we are reborn as Cromwell!
But how often things fail! Something that really emerged from this slow read for me is how hit-and-miss his skills of persuasion are. It is why I called Week 12 "The Great Persuader", the name he gives to Thomas More. Cromwell resorts to bullying tactics because he is not especially adept at changing minds. Or as his nephew says, being persuaded by Cromwell is like being knocked down in the street.
And this is why I take his estimation of his abilities with a big pinch of salt. Throughout all three books, he makes unforced errors of judgement where he thinks he can influence people more than he can: More, Norfolk, Gardiner, Call-Me.
It is easy to see where this comes from. He does not want to be his father. He wants to be the cultured, civilised man he feels he is. But he's always acting the part, and in the end, he is his father's son: a murderer who makes things and breaks people. This is his tragedy.
This is also why he admires Thomas Cranmer and Thomas Wyatt more than anyone else. These two men have the characteristics he most values but lacks.
I decided not to omit the list of characters from thw reading, and boy did it pay off. Right after "The Cromwell household" we have the list of "The Dead"? Sent chills down my spine. And remarks on the limitations of intellect or descriptions like "a suspiciously well-dressed musician"? I'm into this political thriller!
Discussion Code of Conduct
Welcome to the comments section! Please remember that this is an inclusive space with a diverse community. Respect others and their opinions, and help keep this a welcome space for everyone.
You may start one thread in the comments section. If you would like to make additional comments, please add to your thread or reply to other readers' threads.
Footnotes & Tangents is an AI-free space where we celebrate human reading, writing and research. Please do not copy & paste AI research in your comments.
Many thanks!
I read this book when it came out and I forgot the details. The prose is as magical as in Wolf Hall but maybe more “encrusted in jewels”, weighty while witty, like the characters themselves in the opening sequence? It is just so smooth and subtle - the King’s falling in love with actually, the love of his life, is like a passing of a ghost in the background. Now you see it, now you are not sure, unless you are Thomas Cromwell. The dialogues are the best ever. Just magical, Mantel.
Falcons again - there is an episode in “All creatures great and small” where James Herriot fixes the wing of a wounded falcon with a “prosthetic” little stick. And the falcon who happens to be the mascot of the air brigade he serving in during WWII, flies again, to the relief of the officer who owns the magical bird. When Herriot goes AWOL for the birth of his son, he is quietly taken back by his superior and pardoned.
So happy to be back for my second slow read of Bring up the Bodies (third read in total) I didn't manage this slow read of Wolf Hall but I think Bring up the Bodies is my favourite of the two, here i feel we are given more insight into Cromwell's thoughts and feelings and tiny details make it all the more absorbing. Once again Simon your notes add that extra layer and I am loving @beastitches write up as well.
Welcome back, Claire! Great to have you.
I love that TC named his falcons/hawks after his daughters. I first developed a fondness for hawks when I read H is for Hawk. And I have had, for the past several years, a bonded pair of Coopers Hawks in the very large tree next door. Last summer I delighted in watching their two fledglings practice flying in my yard.
Can someone clarify the part where Rafe and Gregory are playing with Weston’s ghost… he is still alive no? I’m a bit confused as to the meaning and metaphor of this section. Thanks 🙏
Weston is very much still alive. Rafe and Gregory are letting off steam by imagining doing away with him – Gregory is still riled up by Weston’s comments at dinner. Catching Weston in a net is a bit of foreshadowing if you know his fate, and we often find Cromwell's boys acting out or vocalising part of Cromwell's psyche that he must keep hidden: ie. his desire to murder Weston.
Thanks so much Simon!
I'll just add my own bit of falcon serendipity. I just moved to a complex on the Pacific Ocean, which is lovely, but has seagulls like mad. One of the things they are doing to keep the problem within bounds is hire a falconer. He and his crew (and the falcon!) come three days a week and wander the property; periodically they let the falcon roam to let the seagulls know there's a Predator on the Premises. I'm not sure how effective this will ultimately be, but the falcon is lovely, and I'm glad to have him on my side.
I have no ghostly memories to attach to him.
So glad you mentioned the tail of his/her eye. It really jumped out at me as an unusual usage. I read this chapter shortly after watching the latest David Attenborough Secret Garden, with the hawks in Scotland at risk of starvation, fighting over a hunk of venison. It definitely brought home the savagery of these magnificent birds. Hard to imagine little Grace in that context but I did like the idea of her and her sister soaring free. And what a stunning opening sentence to this book.
Just starting this week. Hawks are circling all over in upstate NY. And this episode just came up in times for the first installment. I think the universe is conspiring to make the most of Wolf Crawl. Falcons it is! I remember being on the subway in Moscow decades ago and there was a guy with a glove and a hawk in his hood. He just slept there on his way to some fun. The falconer was taking him to practice in one of the woodsy areas where the equestrian complex was located. But the adrenaline you feel when approaching a falcon is through the roof. The falconer was friendly and answered questions from random subway commuters. The bird was placid and didn’t mind.
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/country-life/id1717179540?i=1000736131481
The term "falconry" might at times refer to raptors generally, but falcons and hawks are entirely different birds.
Yes exactly - the biologist talks about the raptors they use and breed for traditional falconry but it’s not what we generally see in the wild and not all birds we see in rehab sanctuaries. Not I am not a biologist, and I have a feeling the literary sources do not always make a distinction of hawks and falcons but that doesn’t diminish our fascination. It is clear that there are many types of birds of prey and only a certain type is used in hunting by humans.
What a story! I’m in central Oxford and have red kites over my garden. They’re carrion feeders not hunters but still spectacular in flight and with such an eerie cry.
Wow! Have you read Helen Macdonald’s H is for Hawk? Another tangent to go down!…
Actually in the podcast the raptor biologist is from the same school as in the link about the language of falconry. How cool!
No not yet - but the future Mrs Shakespeare in Hamnet was quite good with hawks. She had a female kestrel that she trained. I wonder if it’s in the film
It is in the film and people have been saying that if you’re going to see a film about a woman with a hawk this year, H is for Hawk is the better choice!
The very first scene, from memory.
And I think there is also a movie now for H is for Hawk and Claire Foy who played Anne Boleyn in the Cromwell series is the main actor in it.
Neither have I, not yet. Almost afraid to spoil the magic of the book but will watch most likely.
Oh that got me all of a flutter. But I haven't seen the film.
I'm seeing things differently (again!). Knowing that this novel covers only a few months, really changes everything - and I didn't really puck up on that first time round. So many people really don't know how close to their doom they are.
And I'm not sure that, last time round, I picked up on Henry's mood after his walk with Jane. It feels a bit like a workplace romance that I observed (as did everybody in the place), where (at least) one of the participants wasn't aware that it was going to happen. Everybody else could see it, but not the man. Henry does feel surprised by what's happened.
My tangent is the articles in the news about portraits of Anne Boleyn. The famous one isn't contemporary. The drawing is now suggested to be her mother (with the title added later), with a different portrait put forward as Anne. It's all very interesting, I suppose, but I'm not sure it tells us anything about Anne. We all probably come up with our own versions of Anne. (A bit like Cleopatra.)
Yes, it's worth repeating that point about how Hilary Mantel assumed she was writing book 2 of 2 and then realised that this short period demanded its own book. This time compression gives it a thriller intensity. And we can also think of it as the hinge of the trilogy: to anticipates Cromwell's thoughts at the beginning of The Mirror and the Light: “we will not escape these weeks”.
Simon, a pre-comment. I always read your summary of the week's story before I start the chapter, and had a question: You mention they are traveling through "the home counties." I saw the map, so I kind of know that part of the context, but I didn't understand how home counties would differ from . . . . other counties? Non-home counties? Is there something we Americans would need to know about what that means?
The home counties is (are?) basically the counties that are right next to London. There's not really a strict definition, so basically all you need to know is that they are (relatively) close to London.
You can find various versions of why they are called that. Personally, I wouldn't believe any of them!
Great question, David. Yes, the home counties are southern and southeast England – the most densely populated regions of the country outside London, then and now. This was “home” for many working in London or studying in Cambridge and Oxford. This is the flat green pleasant land that perhaps you might think of when you think of England, compared to the more wild West Country (Cornwall etc) and North (Yorkshire, Northumberland etc.
I am behind on my reading but enjoying the catch -up. Yes, Mantel’s style has changed, maybe it’s the climb before the climax that is the combination of all three novels (I speculate as this is my first time reading the books). The climb feels hurried, the type of quickness that feels disconcerting. I really like the end of the chapter when Mantel describes the past, the present, and even the future, like a painter creating one beautiful final stroke: “Jane is facing front, like a sentry. The clouds have blown away overnight. We may have one more fine day. The early sun touches the fields, rosy. Night vapors disperse. The forms of trees swim into particularity. The house is waking up“. That last brief sentence as symbolism for the Seymour house rising soon in power.
I was really struck picking up Bring Up the Bodies so soon after Wolf Hall by how hardened Cromwell is when we meet him here. My memories from the first time I read both novels is that Cromwell was the witty underdog throughout and I’d forgotten how much he develops in that first novel, and how calculating he is by the time we meet him in this second book. He’s not unlikeable exactly but I can already see that he’s a world away from the man we first meet waiting to report to Wolsey at the beginning of Wolf Hall. There’s not a page of this section goes by when he isn’t calculating or performing, trying to stay one step ahead of the game and ensure he’s the hunter and not the hunted. And I can already see Mantel foreshadowing to us, the readers, that eventually Cromwell is going to lose the game he’s playing.
I noticed how he was changing at the end of WH, but here, in the opening of the second book, he's become more set, more comfortable, even, is his ability to rule Henry and England. Even when he's temporarily unable to see what's going on (Jane and Henry), Cromwell is very quick to recover his balance. What a fascinating change in Cromwell's character. I never noticed it when I read the trilogy before.
I’m a first time reader of the trilogy and purposefully not brushing up on my European history.
I’m eager for the “political thriller” style of the second book. The shortened time frame has me prepped for quite a ride!
Thank you for pointing out the mirroring of the opening lines of Wolf Hall and Bring Up the Bodies. How genius- from cobblestones to skies.
I went down a Mary Shelton rabbit hole — my goodness, that woman deserves her own novel. Anyone have recommendations of texts about her?
Following this thread!
There’s a lovely Holbein drawing of her in the Royal Collection - https://www.rct.uk/collection/stories/holbein-in-the-royal-collection/mary-shelton
I'd love to help but know nothing more about Mary Shelton!
I haven't commented in the last few weeks, but this one reiterates the point that unsettles me the most: how TC writes the laws and hunts people with them, all the while pointing out that if only they followed the law, they'd be fine. Must be my Russianness that hates these people with my guts. It makes an interesting reading experience, since in many other aspects I find TC admirable, while More or Weston not so much, but here I side with the latter two. "He needs new phrases...", my a...hem. Bad karma, that's all I'm saying.
It gets to the point about the complexity of Cromwell: how odd it is when readers & critics say Mantel made Cromwell too sympathetic (really?) or that she needed to do some serious work to make him less likeable in the latter stages of the story (really!?). Cromwell the bully, the overconfident Cromwell, is there from page one.
Then again, I hate the concept of Karma in fiction. It is such a sludgy, crass concept. And so false: truly awful acts frequently go unpunished.
Yeah, he definitely contains multitudes from the start, but this side of him keeps growing, since, so far, it's beneficial to the lord he serves. He is undeniably talented.
Well, karma is never about justice in this life. Bad karma is about lessening you chances of exiting the cycle of rebirth and with it, suffering. Our man is increasing his chances to be reborn as a bedbug, I'm afraid :/
I do wonder where it says in the bible that you are allowed to bend rules to force people take your side or else.
One way of seeing the trilogy is as a tragedy, a fatal flaw writing itself out. Mantel was clearly heavily influenced by Shakespeare. What she then does is make us feel like we are him, so we must fully experience the hubris as though it is our own. Cromwell may be reborn as a bedbug, but we are reborn as Cromwell!
Which is exactly why it's a fascinating reading experience, one hundred percent
But how often things fail! Something that really emerged from this slow read for me is how hit-and-miss his skills of persuasion are. It is why I called Week 12 "The Great Persuader", the name he gives to Thomas More. Cromwell resorts to bullying tactics because he is not especially adept at changing minds. Or as his nephew says, being persuaded by Cromwell is like being knocked down in the street.
And this is why I take his estimation of his abilities with a big pinch of salt. Throughout all three books, he makes unforced errors of judgement where he thinks he can influence people more than he can: More, Norfolk, Gardiner, Call-Me.
It is easy to see where this comes from. He does not want to be his father. He wants to be the cultured, civilised man he feels he is. But he's always acting the part, and in the end, he is his father's son: a murderer who makes things and breaks people. This is his tragedy.
This is also why he admires Thomas Cranmer and Thomas Wyatt more than anyone else. These two men have the characteristics he most values but lacks.
Excellent analysis of Mantel's Cromwell. I think I grasped this on an emotional level, but you put it into words for me. Thank you.
I decided not to omit the list of characters from thw reading, and boy did it pay off. Right after "The Cromwell household" we have the list of "The Dead"? Sent chills down my spine. And remarks on the limitations of intellect or descriptions like "a suspiciously well-dressed musician"? I'm into this political thriller!
Also why I often call Bring Up the Bodies (and definitely TM&TL) a ghost story. A ghost thriller?
I absolutely adore that description of Mark Smeaton. The character list in Bodies is a work of art in itself.